You can find Antonia Di Leo on the web at:
[Jon Dabach] 00:00
Today on the show, I have a guest a wonderful guests name and Antonia Di Leo. I’m really excited to introduce you to her. She is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. She’s also a divorce mediator and a Reiki Master Antonia currently is in the dissertation phase of her PhD in integral and transpersonal psychology at the California Institute of integral studies. And she is also a proud mom of three, three teenage children and resides in South Florida.
[Jon Dabach] 00:31
With her family dog named mood, she is super sweet, and has that presence of being completely calm and calculated and centered that I know is so beneficial to couples in distress. So, I’m sure that you will love what she has to share with us today.
[Jon Dabach] 00:48
You’re listening to the relationship revival podcast with Jon Dabach, also known as Mr. Spirituality. That’s me. I’m your host giving you insights and guidance from over 10 years in the field of this amazing journey we call romance on this show, I go over everything you need to know about how to get into a relationship, how to get the most out of a relationship, and sometimes even how to gracefully end a relationship without pulling your hair out and going crazy.
[Jon Dabach] 01:15
And occasionally, I’m even joined by new and old friends who are also relationship experts to bring you guidance and wisdom with new perspectives. Thanks for stopping by, you know what, I think that’s a good it’s a good place to start right off the bat, this whole virtual therapy, what are your thoughts?
[Jon Dabach] 01:31
Do you feel like it’s as effective? I mean, I know a lot of there’s a lot of advantages for for both the therapist and the client. Do you find any drawbacks with it? What are your thoughts about virtual therapy compared to in person?
[Antonia Di Leo] 01:42
Sure, I had some experience and BetterHelp and talkspace. So, I was able to help people from different countries through teletherapy. Prior to 2021, it was a little bit, you know, everyone had to so I did see the advantage of the of it before, I do feel sometimes it is a little bit difficult understanding body language.
[Antonia Di Leo] 02:07
And sometimes when couples are in a difficult space, then they then have to shut off the camera and they’re together, which could ultimately happen in any setting. But there’s, there are definite advantages and disadvantages to both. But I think the advantages are also helpful because there are couples with little children that also aren’t able to have sessions so easily.
[Antonia Di Leo] 02:36
And this has also opened up that world for them. And a lot of other people that it was difficult to come especially for us in Union Square in New York City. So yeah, it’s um, you know, like most things, its advantages and disadvantages everything.
[Jon Dabach] 02:51
Do you like it? Personally?
[Antonia Di Leo] 02:53
I don’t mind it. I do miss seeing couples. And if I was living residing in New York, I would be in the office and I will be seeing my clients in person.
[Jon Dabach] 03:02
But what what do you see, when you see a couple together in person? What do you learn from that interaction? That’s different than the virtual platforms.
[Antonia Di Leo] 03:15
Sometimes its body language is a little bit easier, I feel people might be a little bit more at ease in the office. Although sometimes, especially after coming in, through New York city traffic is always at ease by the time they come to the office.
[Antonia Di Leo] 03:31
But I think it’s just sometimes it makes you a little bit more comfortable being with somebody in person, or if they weren’t comfortable before just being face to face with somebody just calms the mood a little bit. But, you know, like I said, there’s sometimes some couples are able to have virtual sessions even easier than if they were in person because it feels a little bit less personal for them. And that might just be easier for somebody that’s not as comfortable with therapy.
[Jon Dabach] 04:04
Do you ever do. This isn’t what I want to talk about. But now I’m kind of fascinated. Do you ever do sessions virtually where the husband and wife are the two people in the couple are in different locations? And then you’re in a third location? Does that make it easier sometimes if couples are particularly contentious?
[Antonia Di Leo] 04:23
Yeah, as long as they’re both in the states that I’m licensed in, then I will see them. Sometimes it’s even better like Is it because of the there’s a lot of tension. So, it is beneficial in that way.
[Antonia Di Leo] 04:37
So sometimes yes, we do that or sometimes just out of convenience because someone’s working or, which is also helpful for online teletherapy because if someone is at work, and then when they’re at home, and they’re like teenagers or their kids, they might not want to have these conversations at home.
[Antonia Di Leo] 04:54
So, it’s a little bit easier for all different types of couples to just have this car reputation when one is somewhere else and in a different location, just a little bit easier.
[Jon Dabach] 05:05
Very cool. Well, you’ve been a therapist for 15 years now. What made you want to get into the field? Why did you choose this as a career path?
[Antonia Di Leo] 05:17
I essentially, I was doing research prior to grad school. And I realized at that point that I really wanted to be more face to face with people and just help people on a different level.
[Antonia Di Leo] 05:28
I love research, I enjoyed it in my PhD program. Now I’m going to be doing research and I do love research, but I do really want ever wanted to help people face to face a bit more, and it just felt a little bit more personal for me.
[Jon Dabach] 05:43
Very cool. Yeah, I think most therapists get into it because they want to help people. And there’s a common thread that I’ve seen, and I think there’s is there some satisfaction you get when you work with people one on one where you see the results, or you actually feel like you’re accomplishing something that you don’t get when you do just research?
[Antonia Di Leo] 06:03
Yeah, I especially enjoy working with individuals that are going through life transitions, and kind of seeing how their personality changes, seeing what like when they find their voice. It’s like really beautiful process for people that are going through a difficult time, and they can see how they change and grow.
[Antonia Di Leo] 06:22
And that’s really what I love. That’s what brings me joy for India, when I’m working with individuals or couples, just seeing how people change and grow through our process together.
[Jon Dabach] 06:33
Tell me more, I want to like what are the different life stages that you see in which ones do you feel like have some of the biggest impacts on people?
[Antonia Di Leo] 06:41
As you as we spoke about before divorce is definitely when I see go through that with individuals and couples, I do see a lot of change also through different life transitions, when there’s a lot of family dynamics that are difficult, and people having to find their voice with their family.
[Antonia Di Leo] 07:01
That’s a lot of different life transitions where people have realizations about their family, family members. And then we have to kind of process through that. And
[Jon Dabach] 07:12
are there triggering events when people are? are looking at the changes in their family? Or do they just come? Mostly when they’re they just can’t take it anymore? Or they have other symptoms? Like they’re depressed? Like how does that manifest? How did they actually get in touch with you?
[Jon Dabach] 07:26
Or? Or is it something where you’re like, like clockwork, when someone graduates college, or when there’s a death in the family? I’m fascinated by
[Antonia Di Leo] 07:34
that. Yeah, definitely all different traumatic experiences. And you see people after that, and it’s really hard even to gauge about depression or anxiety after a difficult life transition, like a death or divorce or after college or through college sometimes. So, it really depends on the life transition, and depends on what’s happening for the individual.
[Antonia Di Leo] 07:57
Sometimes they’re just experiencing anxiety, and they’re not really sure why. So first, it’s helpful to just process through the physiological responses, to be calm to understand like what’s happening prior to processing information.
[Jon Dabach] 08:15
So, turning the conversation back towards couples, which is my, you know, area of passion and what I do as well, I’m, I’m always interested to hear what your approach is dealing with couples, do you have kind of a set agenda on a first session.
[Jon Dabach] 08:31
And then also, if you could talk a little bit about how you approach working with couples or individuals when it’s, you know, about the relationship, but they’re coming to you just as an individual.
[Antonia Di Leo] 08:42
Okay, so I guess for the first part, I don’t have it depends on what the couples coming in for, right because if you’re a couples coming in for infidelity, which we see a lot, you know, you can’t really start out with like Gottman forms, and different things like that people really just want are dealing with so much and dealing with trauma too.
[Antonia Di Leo] 09:03
So you really have to just see meet the couple where they are at that point, if there’s a lot of trauma, or there’s a lot of resentment, and we kind of have to just break it down, I have to understand their goals in therapy and just understand where they’re coming from.
[Antonia Di Leo] 09:18
And I, when I was reading through the questions and different things that you weren’t going to ask, What I liked about that was the mindset and so for me, the mindset of understanding for couples that conflict is natural. And it’s going to happen through time.
[Antonia Di Leo] 09:36
So, for couples to understand that it’s okay to not agree on everything. We don’t live in a bubble where we all just agree on everything, but it’s been able to get back to a place that’s quicker. Try not to really hurt anyone deeply when you have these arguments or you feel this way to be able to calm down and reset to be able to talk and work Are the contract.
[Jon Dabach] 10:02
Really nice. So, it’s a lot of conflict management and kind of teaching people soft starts other things like that, to kind of help them through it is that kind of an approach you take when it comes to married couples?
[Antonia Di Leo] 10:14
Yeah. And then just understanding to like, while you’re in conflict, or while you’re discussing difficult topics, blame, criticism. And it, when you’re engaging in that way, you’re, the other person is automatically going to probably shut down and not be able to carry on the conversation.
[Antonia Di Leo] 10:34
So, it’s best to just that’s why when you have that reset, and you can calm down, and you’re able to speak in a way that will help with the resolution to what you’re discussing.
[Jon Dabach] 10:46
Yeah, for sure. You also do a lot of work as a as a divorce mediator. What does that look like? A lot of people have never heard of a divorce mediator, especially if they’ve never been through a divorce. So, walk me through what that looks like and what your role is, and how those goals are different than, you know, your role as a therapist.
[Antonia Di Leo] 11:09
Sure, when sometimes couples decide that couples therapy isn’t working out. And they’d like to understand about the divorce process, I explained to them that there’s three different paths that they can go down. There’s mediation where I would, I can help them and work for both of them.
[Antonia Di Leo] 11:28
Or we can talk through all the different elements of the divorce process, you can do collaborative law, where you both have an attorney and the mediator, right, or you can go through litigation, then I will try to explain to them, if we go through mediation together, then it will be helpful just to understand your expenses, to understand what the divorce process will look like.
[Antonia Di Leo] 11:56
And kind of see where they are as a couple because couples with children sometimes really just like to talk about custody, or they like talk about how we can tell the children and so I kind of meet them where they are also, if they don’t really want to discuss finances right away.
[Antonia Di Leo] 12:13
I’ve just explained, okay, we have to work through custody, child support. We have to divide all your assets, and then we have to kind of understand your assets as well. So those are like the different areas that we would have to discuss, and then say which one, which topic would best suit your needs right now?
[Jon Dabach] 12:35
And when do you feel like mediation? Is the more appropriate versus either Collaborative Law or litigation? I mean, what do you when you’re offering these three avenues? How do you when do you see it being successful in mediation versus not? And when do you feel like you wouldn’t even Is there a time where you wouldn’t even recommend? Sure, I’ve
[Antonia Di Leo] 12:57
talked to couples, and I don’t think mediation in this case will work. Mediation is is best when the couple could probably talk amicably. And they want to work through this process. They feel like they can. Financially, sometimes it’s difficult. That’s why I suggest the Collaborative Law where each have an attorney.
[Antonia Di Leo] 13:24
And sometimes when if one of the partners doesn’t feel like they have their voice, it’s kind of it might be difficult to mediate, because you might not be able to express your needs, and be able to negotiate because it’s important to understand what you need, and then being able to negotiate from there.
[Antonia Di Leo] 13:44
So sometimes just even understanding what you need, and what you want your future to look like some people can’t really see that at that point.
[Jon Dabach] 13:53
So, it sounds like there’s kind of if I’m, I want to make sure I understand that. So like either, the couple is amicable. And they and they’re wanting kind of a peaceful split, and they’re both on similar pages are willing to kind of get there. That’s a good case for mediation.
[Jon Dabach] 14:12
But one reason why it might not work that I thought was really interesting is if someone doesn’t even really know what they want. And that case they need an advocate in their corner. litigation or collaborative law might be more appropriate. Is that right?
[Antonia Di Leo] 14:26
Yeah, yes, it’s hard because sometimes people have never dealt with their finances before. They don’t understand how much it would cost to live. They don’t even know how to access accounts. In that case, I wouldn’t suggest mediation because I have to work for both parties. And if someone hasn’t had any access to it, I really can’t enforce any law.
[Jon Dabach] 14:51
Right. Right. Do you enjoy the mediation part as much as the therapy or it sounds a little more stressful.
[Antonia Di Leo] 15:00
If people are amicable, it’s just a really, it’s easier way more of a family first way for couples to get through this process. And if I can do that it’s great joy for me. Because I like to see people get through this time. And you know, it’s going to be difficult no matter what path they take.
[Antonia Di Leo] 15:17
But if they can at least get through this part easy, then it’s, I enjoy being able to help them that it is a little bit difficult, but couples work can be equally as difficult.
[Jon Dabach] 15:31
What else? So that, let’s talk about that for a second. What do you find outside of mediation back going to just straight couples counseling? What are the hard parts of the job? And what are the what are the things that you find personally a little bit difficult to deal with? It could be with like one couple or something where it’s like a pattern you see it in many couples? I’m just curious.
[Antonia Di Leo] 15:53
Sure. For me, I think what’s hard sometimes are couples that have 20 years of resentment, and being able to let go of that resentment to get to a place that they could feel comfortable speaking to the person because sometimes the emotional distance grows so much that there’s not a lot there. And unless you want to let go of some of the past, just really difficult to kind of you can’t really work through every topic for 20 years. Yeah.
[Jon Dabach] 16:23
Yeah, especially not a 15-minute session. what’s some advice for people who need to learn how to let go or struggling with it that you offer,
[Antonia Di Leo] 16:35
being able to let go, it takes a lot of acceptance, and being able to accept that maybe that person wasn’t their best self at that time, maybe you weren’t your best self. And without that, it’s a little bit difficult, because then you just get into this, like ruminating about just the argument ruminating about that time period, ruminating about what that person did to you, instead of saying, Maybe I wasn’t my best self, maybe they weren’t their best self.
[Antonia Di Leo] 17:02
But we need if we want to make this work, we want to be able to find joy in her life for the next X number of years. And that would have to be part of the process.
[Jon Dabach] 17:13
Yeah. Do you assign homework around acceptance? Are you a homework? therapist? I know some people don’t do any homework. It’s like in session only. And some people assigned 17 books to read. So, it’s always that weird spectrum. Where do you fall on this?
[Antonia Di Leo] 17:26
I’m definitely in the middle. Like is that I kind of meet couples where they are I do like the love language worksheet. I liked your couples, you know, just kind of take a few minutes and see what your love language is. We talk about it. But we talk about a question by question because I don’t really like to talk about like an ambiguous category. Words of affirmation. But what does that mean to you?
[Antonia Di Leo] 17:48
You know, I really like to go into each question. And so, homework like that, I usually would give or there’s, you know, some questionnaires sometimes, like people can ask each other questions, but it’s more of just being able to dialogue with each other in a calm way. Just kind of like practice for when I’m not there, then they’re able to just to dialogue with themselves. Yeah.
[Jon Dabach] 18:11
That’s interesting. Do you have them bring their homework back into the session? Or is it like exclusively for them to do on their own? And
[Antonia Di Leo] 18:18
I always look through the love language worksheets, because I, it’s helpful for me to know what, what does love they How did they receive and give love, you know, because then I don’t want to put in place any interfaith intervention, that’s not really going to be helpful for either, you know, if it’s the quality time and the other person has zero and quality time, the other a lot going to give a lot of, you know, assignments in that way.
[Antonia Di Leo] 18:46
So, you know, it’s kind of is helpful for me to understand what they talked about. But the dialoguing, you know, we don’t have to go through every detail of it. Just, you know, how was it? What was helpful, you know, things like that this information that’s important for me to understand.
[Jon Dabach] 19:04
What would your approach be, let’s say, because I have this happen a lot to me, where I actually predominantly work with people who come to me alone outside of a couple, it’s very rare for me to work with both couples.
[Jon Dabach] 19:16
And I and the approach I have is my own, obviously, but what’s your approach when you have someone who comes to you, and the partner is unwilling to do the work? Or are they at least say that there are only two who work and that they want to make the relationship work? How does that change your direction of working with that particular client?
[Antonia Di Leo] 19:35
I mean, it depends, like if I’ve had clients over and over, you know, we give homework or we talk and they’re still like on opposite sides and don’t want to speak to each other.
[Antonia Di Leo] 19:46
And I’ll ask them, like, do you want to talk about a separation? Is that something or do you want to work on this? I don’t really want to waste your time and money. I mean, I know it’s very expensive to come here and takes a lot of your time and I just want to be sure are that this is a process that feels comfortable for you right now.
[Antonia Di Leo] 20:04
So, I just kind of put it back on the couple a little bit to see where they are and what’s what will be helpful for them, especially in New York City, you know, it is very expensive and very time consuming. And if they don’t think the process is for them, maybe their other things, maybe they want to go on a weekend retreat or try something else. Be helpful.
[Jon Dabach] 20:25
So, it’s like there’s that consistent theme of just meeting them where they’re at making sure that their goals are correct. Very cool. Is there is, is there a piece of advice as a therapist, that you give to your clients that you wish they would actually listen to consistently that they just don’t listen to? Like, it’s like, if everyone could do just these three things, I’d be out of business.
[Antonia Di Leo] 20:55
I mean, I do think the acceptance piece is, is really important at that, if everybody can just kind of accept where their partner is, kind of be understanding to their distress they had during that day, and like kind of put themselves and their partners viewpoint, sometimes that’s helpful.
[Antonia Di Leo] 21:16
And I also too, I think, like the validation piece is just like understanding that just because you validate their experience doesn’t mean actually, you have to agree with it, but it usually just helps calm the situation down.
[Jon Dabach] 21:30
Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Very good. Well, let’s talk about you for a second, what brings you joy, as a as a person outside of therapy inside of therapy, you know, where do you find your joy in life.
[Antonia Di Leo] 21:45
And I guess professionally, it would be like, bringing individuals through life transitions and making them feel empowered after that really, like brings me joy as a therapist. And personally, is really like watching my children grow. Having three teenagers just like being at their soccer games, or watching them play golf and dance like that, to me is just like the most joyous experiences,
[Jon Dabach] 22:10
that what’s the breakdown, you have boys, girls, what ages,
[Antonia Di Leo] 22:13
I have a 16-year-old boy and twin girls that are 14.
[Jon Dabach] 22:18
Oh my God, my wife was a pair, or nanny, I guess I don’t know what the term is when she was growing up to twins. And she’s like, she used to pray that she knew that we never got twins. Like I don’t know how people do it full time, just like when I was doing it, it’s rough. So that what’s that, like, once you get over the hard hump, when they’re really small are twins being like a parent of twins must be different. In some ways.
[Antonia Di Leo] 22:43
It’s different. I think, also, the dynamic with having an older brother that’s about two years older than them is a little bit different, too. So, you know, they’re fraternal twins. So, they’re actually polar opposites. So that’s been interesting. You know, one is just really like, into studying and instead the other one is more physical. And so, when you do one for one sibling, the other one is just doesn’t really like it at all right?
[Antonia Di Leo] 23:09
So, trying to find the middle ground, and then also like, incorporating their brother and making him feel like, important and special, too. So, it’s just a lot of balancing everybody’s emotions and, you know, just life in general. Yeah, yeah.
[Jon Dabach] 23:25
Everybody struggles with that? Yeah, yeah,
[Antonia Di Leo] 23:29
giving three children your time. You know, sometimes, like, I can’t like hear all three of you at the same time, you know, one at a time, one at a time.
[Jon Dabach] 23:36
Yeah. There’s always one ball up in the air with three, that’s for sure.
[Antonia Di Leo] 23:39
[Jon Dabach] 23:42
Do you ever talk to your own kids about relationships? I mean, they’re young. But you know, do you? Do you kind of plant seeds for healthy habits and healthy communication at a young age? And what’s your advice for parents in terms of how they talk about relationships to their own kids?
[Antonia Di Leo] 23:59
Sure. I’m even talking about they know what I do. And they asked me questions and just try. I mean, not my son isn’t the only one that’s ever been in, you know, he has a girlfriend, you know, now, you know, 16
[Jon Dabach] 24:13
Yeah. It’s scary, but scary, a little bit.
[Antonia Di Leo] 24:16
Scary. Yeah. And so, you know, just being kind of open and honest with each other. And if something’s bothering you just try to talk about it right away instead of letting the resentment build up.
[Antonia Di Leo] 24:27
So that’s kind of what we, you know, I try to talk to them a little bit about and just kind of also making sure that you’re you can react and respond in a healthy way. So just getting that physical activity out. And being able to feel calm when you’re talking to your partner is always helpful. So they, you know, they appreciate that they kind of we talked about that we do talk about that a lot as far as like, really,
[Jon Dabach] 24:52
that’s interesting. You talked about physical activity. So is that something you recommend in your practice as well if someone’s kind of stressed or in a heated order When maybe going on a walk or exercising to calm down, and that’s something we suggest often,
[Antonia Di Leo] 25:05
always, yes. But yeah, I mean, it’s just helpful to, you know, any kind of like body mind connection that they can have to help reduce stress, but also reduce their blood pressure and be able to kind of get into the conversation in a calm way before you know, tackling any difficult topics is always helpful.
[Antonia Di Leo] 25:23
So, if it’s a walk or run or whatever it is that in their time period in life, it’s helpful for them, I suggest doing before they get into any kind of heavy conversations or being just in general, like with work school, any environment that they’re in.
[Jon Dabach] 25:45
So, it sounds like, you know, from what I heard, I heard some Gottman, kind of background and some Gary Chapman, five love languages. Are there any other resources that you pull on a lot with your couples counseling, other than your 15 years in the field?
[Antonia Di Leo] 25:59
I do like the conflict transformation theory in the sense of kind of like I explained that there’s always going to be conflict, and so not being afraid that you have conflict at the end of their relationship. And oh, but just because we have conflict, or just because we don’t have the same love language, it’s not going to work out. You know, it’s just, it’s helpful to understand that it’s an ongoing process.
[Antonia Di Leo] 26:22
And usually that theory helps me get couples into a space where they understand that it’s natural. We don’t live in fairy tale. Disney movie.
[Jon Dabach] 26:33
Yeah. Although, you know, you’d be surprised Disney, fairytale movies have a lot of conflict. It’s true. Usually, a parent dies right away. Like someone is not who they say, Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. You’re a big dog person. And I know that you work with, is it the biggest rescue shelter in the country or in the state? It’s called the Big Dog ranch.
[Antonia Di Leo] 27:00
It definitely I know, definitely in the state of Florida. I think in the country. I know, they just opened a new facility in Alabama. And they rushed to get over the 50,000.
[Jon Dabach] 27:12
It’s amazing. Like, imagine the foresight that the person who founded that organization had, it’s like, I’m going to save dogs lives. 50,000 Animals later, it’s still going strong. It’s incredible. It’s incredible.
[Antonia Di Leo] 27:26
It’s an incredible place. And my children I we volunteer there; we do different activities with the dog to take them for walks. And it’s just a beautiful place.
[Jon Dabach] 27:36
I see a lot in, it’s funny, but like, I have a client now who’s dealing with some stuff. And it’s happened a lot where it’s kind of a recurring pattern where if the couple is separated, walking a shared dog is oftentimes like the opportunity to start a conversation again, if they’re trying to reconcile so it’s like, I always and I love dogs. So, it’s always like, you know, use the animal as the as the connecting piece of Yeah,
[Antonia Di Leo] 28:03
yeah, using the animal and also like a mind body process to like The Walking combined with like, sometimes the dogs bring calming effect as well. So, it’s a good combination to walk with an animal or apartment.
[Jon Dabach] 28:18
Right? Right, very much. What kind of dog do you have?
[Antonia Di Leo] 28:21
Um, I think he’s like a collie mix. We rescued him about four years ago. So, they’re not really sure but that’s kind of what we’ve deduced from you know, his personality and what he looks like.
[Jon Dabach] 28:31
Yeah, yeah, I know they have those animal testing things where you can like it’s like the 23andme but for dogs my brother bought a dog a much you know, and they said it was this dog and they did the DNA test is like not even close to what they say. Yeah, very cool.
[Jon Dabach] 28:50
So, the if people want to get in touch with the big dog ranch and see what that’s up to, am I saying this right? It’s be like bow like Big D for Dog ranch. R and then another r.org. So, B D, R r.org.
Is that right?
[Antonia Di Leo]
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so listen, you know, every little bit helps and every way you can help save an animal’s life.
[Jon Dabach] 29:12
I mean, 50,000 dogs saved is no joke. That is an incredible achievement. And if you are a dog lover and they brought joy into your life or into your relationship as a couple consider, consider reaching out and offering some kind of help.
[Antonia Di Leo] 29:27
Thank you. Well,
[Jon Dabach] 29:29
Antonia, the Leo thank you so much for joining me it was an absolute pleasure. And I wish you the best in your practice in Florida and in New York. And and I hope that you get to see more couples succeed and transition into the next stage of their life with you know, with some great confidence.