Special Guest: Barbara Heller

Where you can find Barbara:


[Jon Dabach] 00:00
Today on the relationship Revival Show, I’m joined by an old friend Barbara Heller. Barbara is an award winning songwriter, podcaster, filmmaker and educator. She’s also a published author, playwright and voiceover artist, subscribe to her award winning podcast see one beautiful soul to listen to some of her amazing work in the podcast space. She also leads meditate and create workshops that ignite great healing and wonderful creations from the hearts of her students and colleagues.

[Jon Dabach] 00:28
She’s committed to making this world more mentally well safe and comfortable for all ages, you’re listening to the relationship revival podcast with Jon Dabach, also known as Mr. Spirituality.

[Jon Dabach] 00:39
That’s me. I’m your host giving you insights and guidance from over 10 years in the field of this amazing journey we call romance on this show, I go over everything you need to know about how to get into a relationship, how to get the most out of a relationship, and sometimes even how to gracefully end a relationship without pulling your hair out and going crazy.

[Jon Dabach] 01:01
And occasionally, I’m even joined by new and old friends who are also relationship experts to bring you guidance and wisdom with new perspectives. Thanks for stopping by. So what were you doing last night?

[Barbara Hell] 01:14
So last night, I was in a show at the Hollywood improve called Social Media meltdowns. And something that makes me less nervous before I get on stage, as I asked myself, you know, because I’ve also been a director like you, and I’ve been an actor for a really long time. Like, what’s my intention?

[Barbara Hell] 01:31
What am I? Who am I talking to, you know, even if it’s just stand up, like, who am I really talking to? And so, I thought to myself, you don’t have room to be nervous tonight, because you’re talking to the guys in the room, or people who know guys in the room that are on these apps that don’t really know what they’re doing.

[Barbara Hell] 01:48
And they’re not mal intended, right, they’re not malevolent people that are even doing anything out of malevolence, they’re just really misinformed, or just sitting in there, their baby pants, like they’re sitting in their diapers, and they’re not looking to be uncomfortable.

[Barbara Hell] 02:08
And so what winds up happening is that they just keep making a lot of the same choices that are really interesting and wind up like hurting themselves and other people. And so one of the things that they do is they’ll put like, absolutely no thought or work in to their, you know, profiles. And so I made a song called, I want to date your friend about the pictures that they post, because they’ll put themselves next to like, really nice looking friends of theirs. And I don’t know why anyone would post pictures of themselves with other people.

[Barbara Hell] 02:46
And in a profile, especially when it’s like there’s four pictures and they’re all group shots. Like, I don’t know who you are, I can try to figure out the Where’s Waldo of like, and sometimes it’s the same people. So as a joke, I kind of like wrote a time, like,

[Barbara Hell] 02:59
I like the guy who’s pictured and photos one and three and like to be taken out by him, can you tell them about me? So I have like a bunch of songs like that. I want to date you friend.

[Barbara Hell] 03:14
And I made humor of it. Because after a while, that was something that kind of bothered me. But then also, you know, just in general, I feel like across the board men and women just in terms of pictures are I mean, I’m sure it’s hard for guys to because you’re very visual.

[Barbara Hell] 03:32
And you know, women probably post horrible pictures of themselves too. But it’s very different. Like, guys will literally post a picture where it’s just their forehead. Or they’ll or they’ll like think that they look really good.

[Barbara Hell] 03:48
But clearly, they’ve never had the balls to ask somebody, can you please take a look at these because if they had any friend or family member that cared about them that knew that they could take the feedback, they would never have chosen those pictures because there’s so bad.

[Jon Dabach] 04:03
I never saw I didn’t. I got married before the apps existed. But I will tell you that I don’t understand. If you’re living in a city like LA or Florida, where you can get headshots taken for you know nothing from a guy on Craigslist who’s trying to build up their portfolio. Right?

[Jon Dabach] 04:25
Why you wouldn’t spend an hour get like two or three decent photos. If you’re trying to attract somebody, it’s so dumb to me, but it’s so easy,

[Barbara Hell] 04:35
But it speaks to what I am singing about which is that people are so afraid of feedback. They don’t want to if you’re listening to this right now, and you happen to be single or newly single. And you’re really struggling with like, I really want to meet the right person.

[Barbara Hell] 04:54
You have an obligation to get a committee of people that your number one trust number to really look up to in terms of their relationship. And there’s no one perfect and even though even John and his wife were lovely people, and then you guys a really long time, and thank God, you have a really good relationship, but it’s work, you know, you’re always telling me like, oh my god I can I can speak on this because I’ve been working on it right?

[Barbara Hell] 05:18
And you’re you all people, like I’ve known you a really long time, you really value feedback. Like, you’re that’s why you’re such a superstar. And I think that’s if I’ve had any success in our life friendships, it’s because I really am like, please tell me what I can work on.

[Barbara Hell] 05:34
And I don’t ever say it to someone hoping like they have the answer. It’s more because I’ve learned from that too, which we’ve talked about, you know, I’ve been burned a lot. Yeah. At this point, when you start asking, and you start to see the same things, you know, there’s a song from the color purple, God is trying to tell you something like,

[Barbara Hell] 05:53
You will get the message. Now you can either choose to get it like now, right? And actually, like, listen fully, and maybe not get hurt as much, or you can, you know, have it kind of hit you over the head. And I prefer the first way. And it’s still not pleasant. But it’s much better to like ask that committee have like maybe three or four people that you could go to every time you have a date that doesn’t work out or your profile is not doing well, or whatever.

[Barbara Hell] 06:20
You know, in an across the board, it’s just, I think people just want it’s just the human experience. We want to be told, like you’re doing great. And you should also have those people to like my committees, like I have committees for everything. But like, I also just, I also tell myself, like I’ve learned how to love myself. It’s the greatest level of all right, you know, like it when you have a healthy self-esteem when you’re kind of like, oh, yeah, that was a win today. Like, I’ve learned how to do that. Because it’s a jungle out there.

[Barbara Hell] 06:47
Yeah. So I think they’re both important. And I see a lot of really lonely people. And, you know, I think Jordan Peterson, like, there’s certain things that he said that he’s gotten in a lot of trouble for. And maybe I don’t agree with every single thing he says, but I love his whole take on masculinity. And like, men just dying for a way to like a path. They don’t have a path anymore, right? Heterosexual men are like, really in Christ.

[Jon Dabach] 07:15
Well, I see that all the time. When I deal with couples, it’s like, they don’t know what it means to be masculine. They’ve been told to be vulnerable, but then that turns them into this limp noodle that makes or at least in their mind, where they’re like, Well, I’m just supposed to always cry and ask her what she thinks.

[Jon Dabach] 07:31
And it’s like, no, there’s a way to be vulnerable and still be a leader in a relationship. But it’s it’s learning what that means. And learning, you know, what your partner wants? It’s tough. You know what, let me ask you some questions, because you’ve been dating through a couple different decades.

[Jon Dabach] 07:48
Trying to find Mr. Right? How, first of all, how has dating change now versus when you were in your 20s? Wow, for Yeah, for you specifically, not? Because the culture has changed too, but for you specifically?

[Barbara Hell] 08:06
Well, I think in the beginning, I was I never really dated like from let’s say high school all the way through Yeshiva. And let me back up what that means. So I went to a public school my whole life, I was lucky enough to go to school where we didn’t have gun checks.

[Barbara Hell] 08:26
And even though I was in South Florida, everything was gifted it was like a high tax bracket. So I did really well and like felt safe at school and like, actually am grateful for the education I had an incredible teachers. I never felt the need to date because I was kind of freaked out let’s say about my parents’ marriage and was pretty traumatized by it. So I just was like, I’m not I knew I’m not ready yet.

[Barbara Hell] 08:51
I always have that self-awareness. Like I’m just not ready to trust someone. Thank God I didn’t have destructive you know, sexual encounters I got and then when I got to college, like there were guys that would even in high school like people would hit on me but I would be like, No, I’m not ready you know, and I’m okay with that.

[Barbara Hell] 09:09
And I I had some I had big dreams like you and I went to art school and Tisch and was able to just really focus on like, what I wanted to do. And then throughout college, I would get hit on but my parents were going through such a dysfunctional divorce. I mean, most divorces are dysfunctional, but this was like on another level.

[Barbara Hell] 09:28
Yeah, it took four years of trials like yeah, hundreds of 1000s of dollars and back then that was a lot of money. So I kept watching all of our family’s finances just go down the toilet and so because we were always on edge, me and my sister and like hearing like okay, what’s the update?

[Barbara Hell] 09:43
Are they divorced yet? And it took the entire run from freshman year to senior year of college for them to get divorced. So I was dating was just not an option. I knew because I was always in therapy since 16. That I was just not ready to date.

[Barbara Hell] 09:55
So at 24 after going to India and Thailand and like searching for my spirituality, I finally went to Israel and found my path. And I’m telling you the biggest selling point for me, like everyone has a selling point of why I became religious or saved, whether you’re Christian, Buddhist or Muslim. For me, it was Rabbi Aaron saying to me the following words at my first retreat at 24 Oh, you, you haven’t slept with anyone yet?

[Barbara Hell] 10:23
Hold on to that. And I went, you don’t think I’m weird? And he’s like, No, I think it’s amazing. And he said, if you can see if you can hold on to your innocence, your vulnerability, your femininity, and see if you can take some time to study what Judaism says about divine masculine and divine feminine. And I was like, what like, my mind was blown. Like I was a feminist.

[Barbara Hell] 10:50
Minor, my I was one of my like, my three minors in college. And my whole paradigm shifted at that moment. And so when I went to yeshiva, in Israel, the bad part of it, there was a lot of good because I learned about what it meant to be a feminine woman and how powerful that was, and how different it was compared to the first 24 years of my life where I learned how to be more like my dad and I had so much masculine energy.

[Barbara Hell] 11:15
I mean, I really was very masculine, but I have like long hair, and also, you know, doubted my sexuality in college because I listened to the Indigo Girls and tons like I was I was in every LGBT friendly club. So I was just surrounded by people who were like, sexuality is completely fluid.

[Barbara Hell] 11:33
And I still believe that. Absolutely. I think the Torah believes that. But the but that I’ve found is that it’s also okay, and allotted to be a heterosexual woman. Like there’s power in that, and it’s a choice and a choice, I get to choose it if I want to.

[Barbara Hell] 11:55
And in that moment, I went, what if I didn’t choose it, and then all of a sudden, the bad part of being in yeshiva was that it became the focus of almost every class, it was like, and when you get married, like all my teacher sounded like that. And it was like, so in a good marriage, and it was like, and when you finally get married and have children, it was like, that was the, you know, the carrot at the end of every class.

[Barbara Hell] 12:23
Everybody was like, you know, you’d leave your Shiva class because I was there on a scholarship and you’d like leave your nine hour day, just like you were regular school, and you’d like get ready for the Shiva update that night. And I hardly dated because I still wasn’t really sure where I wanted to end up religiously. Thank God because I who knows where I would have ended up but for me from 24 to 31. I was something called Schumer nugget, which means I did not touch anybody.

[Barbara Hell] 12:52
Yeah, I wouldn’t even let my uncle hug me because that’s like, there’s like a whole thing in Judaism. Like, what? And it’s confusing. It was even confusing for me because I’d be wearing like tight pants and a tank top. But like, I, I wanted that prize. And I was told by these rabbis and Robertson’s, like, if you do X, you will get z, which is if you just stay a good girl and like yeah, don’t touch anybody.

[Jon Dabach] 13:15
You know, so you gave it a good seven years?

[Barbara Hell] 13:18
Oh, yeah. And I wasn’t really doing much before that. But I had, you know, one dates here. And you know, I had some experiences. I’ll just keep it at that. But it was, I’ll tell you the good part of that the good part of it was that I felt cleansed in a way. Because I never took for granted if like a really cute guy.

[Barbara Hell] 13:40
I remember once I was at the coffee being on Beverly, and this really good looking guy with like, deep curls, and tall he like was on to me, and he sat next to me. And I just knew he wasn’t Jewish. I could just you know, I’ve pretty good josher I’m sure you do, too. And I was just

[Jon Dabach] 13:57
Like, wish I did sometimes I’m way off. But yeah, me too.

[Barbara Hell] 14:01
And there’s a way off, but, but sometimes you just know. And I wanted him to be and so the first thing I said was do you keep kosher? Because I figured, you know, it’s a kosher restaurant at back then it was fully kosher.

[Barbara Hell] 14:12
And he said, what’s that? And I was like, oh, well, I’m Jewish and modern Orthodox, and we had this long talk and he goes, Well, I’d love to take you out and I was like, so flattered because he had such great energy.

[Barbara Hell] 14:26
But I just, I remember that feeling where he like handed me a napkin and he accidentally touched my hand and I had this was like my breaking point where I was starting to lose it and I was like, I just want to hug your guy like I want to hold the hand I want you know and I remember that feeling and it was like if for anyone who’s listening who’s never tried that, you know being completely charmer and again it’s like actually an incredible thing because we take it so for granted in this culture everybody you know hugs and like shakes hands and you don’t even think about it and I see so many people saying this is my work wife or my work husband and I’m just like you’re literally killing your marriage stop saying.

[Barbara Hell] 15:03
And I made a decision when I was 24 to never have guy friends alone. So if a guy said, I’d like to call you and we don’t have to, you know, date, but I just want to take you out or let’s get together, can I call you? I’d be like No. And to this day, that’s one thing that I feel has really focused me. I just don’t I mean, if it’s you, it’s different. You’re married, like, I know, you’re what you know, and you and I would work on a project together.

[Barbara Hell] 15:27
But like, yeah, I would just never do that I would never hang out alone with a guy. It’s just not my thing. So there’s a lot of good in it. The difficult and this I’m really getting to an answer, which is from 24 to 31. I would say, I was hoping, and sort of like Cinderella, like the Cinderella or sleeping beauty, your kids would know that he’s like,

[Barbara Hell] 15:50
I’m waiting for the one I love to find me today.

[Barbara Hell] 15:55
You know, like, I was like this Disney Princess, if I just follow the rules, I’m going to get the guy and it’s going to be amazing. And all I have to do is wish and hope and like do all the right things in my house. And like, barely put myself out there because God’s watching and it’s all going to work out.

[Barbara Hell] 16:13
And like everyone, I keep sending out my profile, and it’s updated, and I look great. And I’m getting lots of good feedback, and it’s all going to work out. Meanwhile, you know, at 31, I had a breakdown, I didn’t have like a psychotic breakdown, but it was pretty close.

[Barbara Hell] 16:28
And I think I told you this story that there was a particular rabbi who I will never say his name, but you know, he meant well, I guess, but he apparently was probably one of those miserably married people and wanted like company, so he told me at 28 You need to become a little more religious. And if you do, you’re going to get everything you want. By 30, you’ll be married, which is a very dangerous thing to say.

[Barbara Hell] 16:54
And so from 28 to 30. So remember, 24 to 30. I’m like really checked in right. And he like, put the flame up a lot higher. Yeah. And so I was following even more rules and really feeling guilty if I ever because I’m human would like veer off anyway. Like, if I answered a phone, a Shabbat was coming in, I’m like, oh my god, I’m not going to get married now. You know, it was like that kind of scary feeling.

[Barbara Hell] 17:18
And he was really into the fear part of, you know, the dogma of Judaism, which is a great cocktail for being miserable. That’s it wasn’t it? 30. But on my 31st birthday, I remember I had a bunch of people that like if I said their names, it would be really obnoxious, because they all became very famous, but we were all sort of coming up together in Hollywood. And we were all like, no one knew who we were.

[Barbara Hell] 17:44
And, you know, I’ve been here already for three years. And they’re like, oh, my God, she’s so religious, you know. And they’re dating and having the best time and touching and whatever. And like just being normal. And I was being the religious girl in the tight pants, which makes no sense. And I saw the numbers on my cake. Someone got me a 30 and

[Jon Dabach] 18:05
31. Yeah.

[Barbara Hell] 18:08
And at that moment, there’s a scene in my, my show that I wrote, it’s like a bio show. And it’s called Find a BB. And it was here in LA, and we went on tour, and there’s the scene.

[Barbara Hell] 18:21
My, like, dark night of the soul begins with seeing that 31. And I’m like, God, he was wrong. Yeah, because I’m not I can feel it right now. It’s like going down my spine, he was wrong. He said, that if I just did all these things, by 30, I’d be married. And now I’m 31. He didn’t show up.

[Barbara Hell] 18:42
And I’m telling you, I have never felt depressed like that my whole life. And I think a lot of people go through depression in their 30s because it’s when we finally start to settle down enough because our energy slows down a little where we can actually hear our own thoughts.

[Barbara Hell] 18:57
And I wished that someone could just hold my hand and say it was going to be okay, but I had to learn how to do that. And then I started going to mindful awareness classes at the mark center, and it was so painful because my entire life started coming up and it was I couldn’t control it.

[Barbara Hell] 19:14
It was just like, my friend Rebecca explains it when it happened to her as like you’re let’s say you’re going through the drive thru at McDonald’s. And so for years, you might be going through the drive thru and just throwing the cases of the McDonald’s packages in the back and then one day you just slam on the brakes and they all come flying towards

[Jon Dabach] 19:35
So weird analogy, but I liked the picture you painted.

[Barbara Hell] 19:38
Well, it’s not mine, you can give her credit back room. But you know, she said that to me, because we were all going through this really difficult time. She whatever. I had friends going through divorces and at that time, we all were sort of like are we still going to stay religious? Because you know, we all were secular then became religious and Israel came back.

[Barbara Hell] 19:55
And so in that moment, I sort of really had to choose Again, and that moment lasted a good year, where I was just sitting on the floor with my hands on my belly and just breathing into that terrible feeling of, did I just ruin my life for six years? Did I miss my prime? Did I trust the wrong people do?

[Barbara Hell] 20:16
Did I have the right committee? And I went right back to that Rabbi, and I said, what you said to me was dangerous. Please don’t ever say that to anyone else again. And he learned and he apologized. I haven’t really talked to him since but I remember learning how to forgive him. And it was really hard. But it wasn’t him, right? Like we all have that agency to either take advice or not sure. And so from 32, until now, so it’s been a year just being depressed them that I get that right, pressed anxious,


[Barbara Hell] 20:50
Like not being able to feel my body wondering if I was ever going to come out of that loop. Yeah, I had to literally change the neural pathways in my brain.

[Barbara Hell] 20:59
And I really get that people get go to a very dark place. Because I was having moments of that I couldn’t, because I literally a piece of me was dying. I was like learning how to let go of this very religious person and come stepping into a new person who wasn’t the secular bar, but wasn’t, you know, the religious, either some, like a meld. And I think as a human, that’s the hardest thing to do.

[Barbara Hell] 21:22
Because your ego is like, super bruised, and you have to learn how to talk to yourself in a new way. And thank God, I had incredible teachers and friends who came forward and just sat with me and I never went on medication. I tried, I couldn’t put the pills on I like I couldn’t do it. I’m not a pill person, not against it, just but I found mindfulness. And now I teach people how to because I said, If I ever get through this time, I will help other people. And that’s all I’ve been doing.

[Jon Dabach] 21:51
So that was that was 31 to 32. Right? That was that year. So what happened at 32?

[Barbara Hell] 21:57
At 32, I went to something called the mood LA, which was a retreat for people from all walks of Judaism, and incredible guests from all over the world. And I met a guy there who would become my first like, love. And if he was I always say he was the boyfriend I never had in my 20s.

[Barbara Hell] 22:23
And he was in his 20s. And I was in my 30s, he was eight years younger. And we had an incredible relationship that I really needed. Because I learned how to trust a guy for really the first time that I had, you know, other boyfriends here and there for like a short period. But this was like a nice chunk.

[Barbara Hell] 22:41
And it was date. Not that long, I would say like six or eight months. And then when we broke up, it really hurt because as Sheryl Crow sings, first cat is the deep and I’m just going to, you know, break into song. I hope that’s okay. And that was very informative for me. I needed it, I had to learn. We were not meant to be, you know, forever people in our lives, but we’ll always be, we’ll always be friends in some way.

[Barbara Hell] 23:13
And we learned a lot from each other. And the biggest thing I learned was that I can be intimate with someone and trust them, and, and repair. And I needed to know what it was like to have a breakup and that I would be okay. And I was and then from 32 to 37 I think what I learned is and where I’m at now with dating, and it’s just gotten better and better and better, which is it’s not about hoping and wishing and praying, even though it’s great to be in the mindset like the right one is coming.

[Barbara Hell] 23:49
But you are the one right my friend kute Blackson away just had on my podcast, he has a book called you are the one. In other words, when I’m looking at you, John, even though like I really admire you and love you and think you’re incredible.

[Barbara Hell] 24:04
There’s whatever you are to me as much as I see you and I feel like I really see you. You’re a hologram of me looking at you. Yeah, and so no, it sounds very trade and we all know this phrase, but like no one can really make you feel a certain way no one can love you up. You have the ability if you choose to love other but and you can feel and let in when someone loves and gives to you.

[Barbara Hell] 24:32
But we’re all constantly just trying to grow we’re like, you know, plants that are like, we need sun we need you know, light, we need lack of light we need to be moved around a little bit. We need food. We need air all of that. And so, you know, we’re always looking for what do I need?

[Barbara Hell] 24:53
What do I need? And like part of the I need is how can I give to someone else and receive from someone else but it’s a completely different story. And it took me years within this timeframe to learn that like, the more I love myself and give to myself and need someone like that one person a lot less.

[Barbara Hell] 25:16
That’s the secret to not suffering, right? And it doesn’t mean that I don’t have room like I really do. I would love to get married and have children and I really believe it’s coming. I’m not jaded. Like, I can’t wait to meet the guy. And I think what’s different about me now is that I, you know, I broke off an engagement when I was 38, turning 39.

[Barbara Hell] 25:41
And it was the hardest thing to do, because I had a vision board for so many years, like, I’m going to be married by 30 I’m going to have my about

[Jon Dabach] 25:48
That what happened there? I actually don’t know that story.

[Barbara Hell] 25:51
Okay, so. So I break up with this first love from 32 to 37. I’m just like, kind of broken. My heart is like, a little broken and wondering like, Am I too old? Did I miss my time, or my eggs, you know, basically drying out, like, what’s gonna happen, I have this vision board. And I’m still kind of repairing from, you know, that whole Rabbi situation.

[Barbara Hell] 26:19
And I think it was painful. It was a painful time to really get to that place of like, where I just said, I am now which is like, I am the one. So you can say it to yourself, and you can practice all the things, but it’s like muscle memory, you know, for 32 years, I was like, someone else will fill that that void.

[Barbara Hell] 26:43
So that only been four or five years, that I was like thinking, No, that can’t be it. Right? So it’s really not that I was like a four year old in that world. And so at 37, I met this really great guy on JD sweet. And I was like, you’re seven years younger than me, you realize that right? And he was like, he was like, well, that’s an interesting first question. Yes, I looked at your age, I think you’re beautiful.

[Barbara Hell] 27:05
I’d love to take you out. And I was like, oh, what a gentleman. And he wound up being amazing. And on paper, he was perfect. And we just didn’t connect in a soulmate way it was more like, we would be great for like, setting up a business or maybe not even that, but I’m executing, like a project.

[Barbara Hell] 27:28
And our project when we met, subconsciously was I’m looking for a husband, I’m looking for a wife, I want to have a baby. And you know, I want to have a home and Jewish family. Great. And that checked all the boxes. And we were nice looking people and you know, clean records.

[Barbara Hell] 27:45
And it was like, okay, but that’s how it was, it wasn’t like, Yes, I love talking to you, yes, I could talk to you till three in the morning, you’re my best friend. Like I trust you, we will have these things, let’s work it out. And it was it felt very, like mechanical and, you know, medicinal like, like a prescription, you know,

[Jon Dabach] 28:08
Like a transaction, right? Like a transaction.

[Barbara Hell] 28:11
And I really get that a lot of people are, I don’t want to say stuck, but have chosen to be in those marriages. But I just couldn’t do it. And so we were like three months away from getting married. And I said, I don’t know if it’s you or if it’s me, but I just can’t do this right now.

[Barbara Hell] 28:32
And I’m I blamed it on, I’m just probably not ready to be married, there must be something wrong with me which I still have his day kind of regret. Because sometimes it’s just like a no, and it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you or the person, it just means like, this soulfully doesn’t feel like the thing.

[Barbara Hell] 28:50
And yet, I also really believe that any two people could probably get married and be okay. However, they both need to be ready to show up fully. And there has to be basic attraction and basic values that are very much aligned. And I just don’t know if we had any of those things. I think again,

[Jon Dabach] 29:10
Basic attraction or values.


[Barbara Hell] 29:13
I don’t know. I think our values were a little different enough that it wouldn’t have actually worked. And I don’t think that there was basic attraction there. I think it was like,

[Jon Dabach] 29:23
On his part either.

[Barbara Hell] 29:25
I don’t know. I can’t speak for him. But I think we were both kind of forcing the issue because it was like nice looking people we really, but attraction is never about the physical its right. It’s always like something deeper. Ah,

[Jon Dabach] 29:39
I don’t know about that from guys. Okay, guys perspective. I think it’s, I mean, there were women who I dated before my wife where that was the only thing was a physiology you know, and then you know, as a guy, you have to learn that you can’t force values and personality, any more than you can force of physical attraction. So, but it’s just it’s it’s a typical for guy to date someone they’re not attracted to.

[Barbara Hell] 30:10
Yeah. Okay. So I think he was attracted to me. And I think, you know, I’m a comedian, right like you and so I just need to know that the person is going to naturally make me laugh. Yeah. Like every day like you just one time or like, a few times a week I’m you know, but they don’t have to be a comedian, but they have to get me enough on an like that level. And I think we just had completely different senses of humor. Yeah,

[Jon Dabach] 30:43
I’ll tell you. So I’ll tell you a quick story because you’ll, you’ll appreciate this. So I took my wife at to see Jackie Mason. I think it was at the Wiltern when we were, I can’t remember if we were engaged yet, or just very seriously dating. We got married pretty quickly. And my whole family was there.

[Jon Dabach] 31:05
And I grew up watching Jackie mazes myself in Vegas. And so my three brothers, my parents, my sister in law, were all there. And we’re crying from the laughter we’re so like, our insides hurt. And I and my wife was we were just dating at the time or whatever. I mean, not a peep. I was just like, just didn’t laugh at all. Like, there was one joke about sushi where she kind of went, huh.

[Jon Dabach] 31:29
And I’m like, bowled over. Like, I can’t take it. Laughter. And, you know, it’s so funny, because I was like, I don’t know if I can marry this woman. She doesn’t think Jackie Mason. So like, as, as someone who came from the entertainment world, who loves laughter more than anything, you know, it’s like how, like, if Jackie Mason can make her laugh, I have no chance.

[Jon Dabach] 31:54
Luckily, what saved our relationship is I stubbed my toe, and she left her ass off at me like screaming and pain. And I went, Okay, all right, I can make this work.

[Jon Dabach] 32:05
So to this day, like with my four kids, when they hit me in the head or something, she’s still laughs and we laugh a lot. But I mean, it was for someone who comes from that world like you. Sure when that’s missing? It’s like, I don’t I don’t know how to make this work. I don’t know how to make this work. Its like, that’s not that doesn’t work for me.

[Barbara Hell] 32:23
But I’ve analyzed it. It is an EQ thing. It’s an emotional intelligence thing. It doesn’t mean that he’s not intelligent. He’s a bunch of greats. Very bright guy. It’s more like, we just have different sensibilities, right? Like, I remember, I met someone from Australia, and they thought it was really funny to take the piss out of someone. And so I was on this, like, Journey hiking through Thailand with this group of people.

[Barbara Hell] 32:49
And it was mostly Australians and I was the butt of everyone’s joke. Well, it hurt and like, I have a podcast of a very serious things like people dying and suicide and how we’re going to make the world better. And what’s happening in Iran. Like, that’s what I talked about, like I can go really deep. And some people don’t want to talk about that. They just want to laugh and take the piss out.

[Barbara Hell] 33:08
And you really crude that I am not that person, like I am highly allergic to bullying. And I don’t think it’s funny. I don’t think it’s fun. I’ve never understood when people in an office setting can just be like, Well, that’s because you’ve ever been ever, like I just I, I run to that person who’s being bullied.

[Barbara Hell] 33:26
I’m like, are you okay? And they’re always like, Yeah, its fine. They’re just making a joke. It’s like, right, and yet at the same time, like, I have a thing for Anchorman, and I think it’s really funny. And it’s a little crude in a different way. You know, like, yeah, that’s a silliness. That’s, that’s sexual repression, humor, you know?

[Jon Dabach] 33:43
Seven years of your life that’s coming out in the form of a laugh.

[Barbara Hell] 33:47
Exactly. And so sevens, it’s funny that you said seven. Yeah, like Jacob. Everything’s in sevens. But, you know, if you’re not growing every seven years into something new, you know, you might want to check who your rabbi or spiritual leader is, because it’s really important to, you know, kind of take a pulse and be like, Oh, where am I right now with this? Are things going the way that I want them to?

[Jon Dabach] 34:09
Happen? Yes. Speaking of that, what’s so where are you now?

[Barbara Hell] 34:14
With? So I broke off this engagement, it was very painful. I had to let go, like, am I letting go of getting married in general? Or is it just this guy, and it took a long time for me to make peace with like hurting him or his family? Because it was must have been, like, painful for them and embarrassing, or at some level, even though nothing to do with them? Or him. It was just like, not the right thing.

[Barbara Hell] 34:36
Thank God, he wound up getting married and having kids and he’s doing great and I’m so happy because I didn’t prevent him from meeting his soulmate. Right? And it took about a year and a half to recover from that. And then I was 4040. I froze my eggs. I made a documentary about it. And then I wound up flying to New York and I figured new place.

[Barbara Hell] 34:57
New Mazal I’ll go to a new place and I figured I’d meet one guy in New York. And I have to tell you like dating in New York in your 40s. That’s rough. It’s already brutal, like in your 20s and 30s. The joke and dating Jewishly in New York is like, can we wrap this up? I have three more dates to get to, right. Like people are just constantly dating. It’s like, like, being on a treadmill.

[Jon Dabach] 35:19
And why is that? Why? Why is the culture like that?

[Barbara Hell] 35:22
It’s a great question. I think it’s because of numbers that, you know, you’ll swipe through profiles or matchmakers will send you on dates, and everybody’s hoping that it’ll be the right match. And so because there’s so many people, you tend to think, well, I like this person, but I really want someone with blonde hair.

[Barbara Hell] 35:41
It’s like, oh, well, I’ve got a blonde that nine. So that’ll probably be the right person. It’s like, no one’s really looking for the most important things. They’re just looking to, like, match up perfectly, like a color form. And I think in LA or a smaller Jewish population, like Atlanta, or Boca, you know, there’s just you give people more of a chance. And so I felt like I was just in a factory.

[Barbara Hell] 36:06
And I was meeting a lot of people who had kids for the first time, because I was like, finally open to meeting guys with kids. And I actually prefer guys with kids, because I feel like in general, generalizing, even if their marriage was like, not great, they know how to take care of someone else. But there’s also a lot of baggage with having kids to like, you know, they might look at you, like, would this person get along with my kid versus like, Is this my soulmate and will be helped me grow spiritually.

[Barbara Hell] 36:31
And then I worry about the kid. So where I’m at now is, you know, from like, when I moved away from New York, no, so I moved to Florida to be with my family during the lockdown. And just, you know, because it was scary. And my dad and I wound up learning Torah together once or twice a week for two and a half years, which improves his health greatly improved our relationship. And I felt like okay, this is what I needed. So I can make room for my soulmate, because I had lived far away from my dad, since I’m 18 years old. This is my first time home.

[Jon Dabach] 37:12
18 was that when the divorce started?

[Barbara Hell] 37:15
Yeah, my dad left right after I left for college. He was very aligned with me and

[Jon Dabach] 37:19
The relationship with your father. Yeah. Okay, so now you’re ready. I mean,

[Barbara Hell] 37:26
I hope so. Look, I’m always looking for things like, oh, that must be the thing, right? And it’s always good. Even if you’re wrong. I think it’s I think David Sachs is one of my teachers would say, that’s a great thing. Like, oh, maybe that’s the thing. And that’s okay, too, or to get excited about like healing your heart in different ways. Or healing your body. Like if there’s something you need to take care of, don’t put it off, like, just do it.

[Jon Dabach] 37:54
Are you? Are you recording this from your phone or your laptop? My laptop? Do you have your phone with you? Do, I think what we should do because we’re coming towards the end of this thing. And I want I want some practical advice. So if you’re a guy and you’re in your 40s, and you’re looking to date Barb, or someone like Barb, let’s open up one of your dating apps, let’s read through don’t say anybody’s name, but let’s read through some horrible dating profiles to show people what not to do. So

[Barbara Hell] 38:27
I literally did this. That was my song in the show. And I could sing some of them. Music So. Okay, here, I’ll just this is hilarious. I happen to have it completely ready because I did it last night in the show. Okay, so hold on.

[Jon Dabach] 38:50
I had no idea just so everybody knows. I had no idea she was going to do this. It was just something genuinely, I wanted to I wanted to because I’ve never done it myself. So I’m like, what if I had to God forbid like let’s say my wife leaves me which is the way I always phrase a divorce because I am not going nowhere. But if my if my wife left me what the heck would I put on my profile? You know, like I’ve no clue.

[Barbara Hell] 39:11
This is an actual profile photo.

[Jon Dabach] 39:14
It’s what I can’t even make it out what is it’s like a guy with two happy faces and a show

[Barbara Hell] 39:19
Well I put the happy faces on so you couldn’t see who it was but it’s a doctor. He’s wearing his scrubs, okay. Shower cap on and he has a shofar in his mouth.


[Jon Dabach] 39:30
Now, let me it’s like the intention here that if you’re going to click on this photo, you’ll you’re okay with anything like you think that’s Do you think that’s maybe what his intention is? Like, if they say yes to this, I’m golden in.

[Barbara Hell] 39:46
Well, he has a sense of humor. He wants everyone to know he’s a doctor or works in a hospital. He could be like a PA or a nurse or an LPN, but any has a shofar in his mouth.

[Jon Dabach] 39:55
So he’s just trying to check the box of like, do Doctor available. Yeah, exactly for you. All right.

[Barbara Hell] 40:03
Right. And there was no other picture. That’s why into the song, which I think is really kind of gross. This is hold on

[Jon Dabach] 40:15
Profile wasn’t much better.

[Barbara Hell] 40:18
Oh, no, usually. So let me let me let me show you some of the worst ones. Okay, so I sing this. This is some a profile that I literally copied and pasted. I put it on canvas, I could take out their name. And all that’s listed is what you see on the page. So you have his height. You have,

[Barbara Hell] 40:36
Hey, my name is Jaime and I will update this shortly. I’ll update this shortly

[Barbara Hell] 40:44
That I sing it to paparazzi, and then you have his height. So I know he’s five, six, and that is a lawyer

[Jon Dabach] 40:53
And a picture of him bending over a lake or something. Yeah, he’s

[Barbara Hell] 40:57
Like doing a water sport. Hmm. And that’s all it says.

[Jon Dabach] 41:02
Okay, well, that’s not necessarily a bad profile. That’s just someone who started one and then never got around to doing it.

[Barbara Hell] 41:08
But then why would you write a girl would never say I’ll update this later. You just really do it. Yeah. Okay. This guy has like three chins. I took out his face. He’s 54 his name is rocket, which is hilarious. It says He’s conservative. He’s not kosher. Jay swipe right. And his. His profile said the following. And I put it to part time lover. That was the song that I did from the 80s

[Barbara Hell] 41:46
I’m a flower lover, not Dr.

[Barbara Hell] 41:51
Dre. Oh, no. How do I sing it?

[Barbara Hell] 41:53
Um, oh, flowers. Cinna. Love No. Ryan on driver for two hours just to beat you again. Yes. And then

[Barbara Hell] 42:03
I kind of go off on that. And I do a little riff. Hold on,

[Jon Dabach] 42:08
What are you looking for in a profile?

[Barbara Hell] 42:11
Oh, I can show you a good one. So let me see. What are

[Jon Dabach] 42:17
You looking for in a photo too?

[Barbara Hell] 42:20
Okay, so like this guy? Actually. I’m not going to show you his picture. But

[Barbara Hell] 42:34
Like, I can tell this guy is fun because of how he wrote his profile, even though I don’t necessarily agree with everything you said. So hinge is excellent. Because there is an option if you’re Jewish to only date Jewish guys, okay. And no other secular website has that

[Jon Dabach] 42:51
That’s so interesting, they’ll still set you

[Barbara Hell] 42:53
Up. Even if you said Jewish is a deal breaker or Christian is a deal breaker. And by the way, you still have to do your homework because even if they put Jewish it could just be that their grandfather’s Jewish on their size, or they’re lying. I don’t think people really want to lie about it, but whatever, or they just don’t know. Or maybe they’re maybe their mom had a reformed conversion. And now she’s back to Christianity. And it’s like going to be a mess if you get married to them, because, you know, there’s

[Jon Dabach] 43:17
So many rocks and you have those kinds of stipulations. Sure, right or not,

[Barbara Hell] 43:20
Even if you’re Orthodox, let’s say you just want the kids to be Jewish, and they’ve been raised in such a secular home that they’re so not into it, right. So that’s an issue, okay, I helped a lot of people convert through the Orthodox, whatever I like, help. I’m a support for a lot of people.

[Barbara Hell] 43:36
So I’ve seen so many issues with just getting married, even if they’re a secular Jew, but both of their parents are Jewish. It just makes it so much easier. It doesn’t mean that I’m like an elitist. I only have friends that are have Jewish parents. I don’t care. But when it comes to getting married, it’s a value thing. Right?

[Barbara Hell] 43:51
Okay, so here’s what he wrote, wants to play pickle ball swimming, whatever engages in Convos over Yellowstone tech enjoys cooking, and drinking together walking the dog escapes to bed and breakfasts that that kind of stuff and never says the word vibes.

[Barbara Hell] 44:07
So even though I don’t necessarily play pickle ball, I like the he put a lot of information there, right. It’s rare that I see a good profile. Green flags, I look for smart, confident, engaging conversationalist willing to be patient and see how things develop over time between people. The secret to getting to know someone is engaging in some relatively timely back and forth conversation if we match and strongly consider a phone call.

[Barbara Hell] 44:38
Because so many people I understand why he wrote that because so many people are afraid to get off the app. They just text they look for something wrong. Like I see that you wrote that you’re conservative or your liberal. Is that true? How would you ever vote for this person? That was Oh, forget it. It’s not a match. Like they’re looking for that right? So not my thing anymore because it’s not an interview.

[Barbara Hell] 44:59
You’re like looking for your soulmate, they may have voted for someone last time that they’re not going to vote for again. Or it may not be allergic to cats. Even though they wrote, I’m a dog person, I don’t know. Like, it’s so easy to discount someone.

[Jon Dabach] 45:15
So what’s next for you, Barb?

[Barbara Hell] 45:19
Is interesting. I mean, I just moved back to LA, I’m really loving the energy here. I thought I was never going to come back. But I’m working in TV and film, and I’m really enjoying it. And I’m just like, having fun. And I might have a kid on my own, just to kind of get that out of the way. It’s weird.

[Jon Dabach] 45:39
I have something you get out of the way.

[Barbara Hell] 45:43
No, no, it is at this age? Because I don’t know. Right? It’s not like

[Jon Dabach] 45:48
They’re here after you’re gone. So

[Barbara Hell] 45:51
100% I meant breaching that because pun intended. I have because it’s something I have makes me emotional. It’s something that I think about all the time. You know, I don’t want to, I don’t want to miss that. Yeah. And then it kind of sucks. Like, that’s the one thing. Like, I don’t think about it a lot, because I think I would go crazy.

[Barbara Hell] 46:25
But I used to. And when I tap into that I don’t allow myself to like really go there. Because there’s so many other great things to focus on. But it would be so great to have a family. And I do have a family and I have lots of good friends. But it would be so nice to just be able to come home and do a family instead of doing this alone. And I’m really good at it. Like I’m a happy person

[Barbara Hell] 46:51
. And I’ve tried five times to start the process. And every time I’m sitting on that table, and they’re about to put stuff in there and get things going, I panic, and I live and you pull, there’s always Yeah, Christian woman holding my hand in the office of the doctor.

[Barbara Hell] 47:15
And she’ll say, you don’t have to do this right now. And it’s literally the phrase that they say. And I I made, you know, I just wrote a memoir, and one of the chapters is called you don’t have to do this right now. Because it’s clearly a divine message. Like, I mean, the fact that they say it that way every time. It happened five times in a row.

[Barbara Hell] 47:34
Yeah. Like, I mean, they don’t know each of these nurses are in completely different offices across the country, like how would they know each other. And I feel like, it’ll be really clear when it’s the right time for me to do that if I have to, but it just feels so counterintuitive, like to have waited this long. And I’m supposed to do it through a tube like,

[Jon Dabach] 47:56
Well, so I can offer any solace here. Please. You know, you’ve had some fear around getting married in the past, you’ve had some hesitations. And I truly believe that you attract similar kinds of souls to come in through this world. So maybe the soul that’s supposed to come in through you is also scared. And when they finally do come, you’ll make each other whole. Barb, thank you so much.

[Jon Dabach] 48:32
Do you mean the husband or the


[Jon Dabach] 48:35
I mean, the, the child, I think the child’s, you know, scared to come into this world. It’s scary. It’s, you know, there’s that old parable in Judaism we have of God having to trick the soul into the body, which shows you that there is room in relationships to be manipulative in the right context.

[Barbara Hell] 48:55
Wow, that you went airfare?

[Jon Dabach] 48:57
I wonder. Yeah, yeah. But that’s more of a parent child thing. I mean, how many times do we bribe our kids to brush their teeth? You know, that’s being manipulative. But that’s a reward and punishment system that has the good intention in mind, not because of selfish reasons.

[Barbara Hell] 49:09
So I was just thinking about that, talking about that today, how important reward and punishment is, even though at the same time that you offer it after teaching 25 years kids to college age, you always say and you should be doing this anyway, even if it weren’t reward because it’s just the right thing to do. And you’re going to feel so much better if you live your life doing the right choices, as opposed to just for the reward.

[Jon Dabach] 49:34
Yeah, no, I think that I think there’s a child up there in heaven waiting to come down for you, and is just as scared of coming down. We’re getting married at certain points. So

[Barbara Hell] 49:47
That’s beautiful. That’s it. That’s a finish. I haven’t heard that yet. And I appreciate it.

[Jon Dabach] 49:51
So if you’re if you are as hungry as I am to have more Barb in your life, she has a beautiful podcast that you can find on it. ITunes and Spotify called see one beautiful soul where she talks about everything and anything under the sun that has meaning and depth and I highly, highly recommend it.

[Jon Dabach] 50:12
So please check it out at sea when beautiful soul.com There’s also a website where you can kind of read more about it and get all the links. I love you, Barb, I’m so glad you have the time to do this and I am looking forward to schmoozing with you more if you’re interested in learning how to get the absolute most out of your romantic relationships then you’re in luck because I have put together a free workshop or masterclass if you will about three secrets that people in happy relationships have discovered.

[Jon Dabach] 50:44
You can view the workshop and mister spirituality.com/three secrets again, it’s completely free. Just go there and watch it it’ll help you on your journey give you some wisdom. Some things to think about. The website again is mrspirituality.com/threesecrets. That’s mrspirituality.com/the Number three, the word secrets. It’s all yours. Enjoy.


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