Special Guest: Cletus R. Bulach

Where you can find Cletus online:



[Jon Dabach] 00:00
Today on the relationship Revival Show, I’m joined by Dr. Cletus Bulach. Clet is a retired Ohio School Superintendent and associate professor emeritus at the University of West Georgia. He is the author of two books, school climate and culture. These are the student learning keys to collaborative problem solving and responsibility. The second book is enhancing a high performing school culture and climate, new insights for improving schools. His website is www dot West ga.edu forward slash tilde C bu lac ch. And his email is cbulach@comcast.net.

[Jon Dabach] 00:42
All materials on his website are free. And today we’re going to talk about the very intimate and very heavy subject of school shootings, why they happen, what’s the relational issues that kids are facing in school, and his thoughts on how we can change the culture to help prevent these hopefully, moving forward, you’re listening to the relationship revival podcast with Jon Dabach, also known as Mr. Spirituality.

[Jon Dabach] 01:09
That’s me. I’m your host giving you insights and guidance from over 10 years in the field of this amazing journey we call romance on this show, I go over everything you need to know about how to get into a relationship, how to get the most out of a relationship, and sometimes even how to gracefully end a relationship without pulling your hair out and going crazy. And occasionally, I’m even joined by new and old friends who are also relationship experts to bring you guidance and wisdom with new perspectives.

[Jon Dabach] 01:39
Thanks for stopping by. I’m here with Dr. Cletus Bulach. Thank you so much for being on the show. I think you have such a great perspective on such a really heavy and important matter being that you you’ve practiced in different ways. But you’re most importantly, you were also a superintendent in in a school and so there you have kind of that firsthand knowledge of what does and doesn’t work and what kind of you know that that actual real world world experience of how to make things have serious change and transformation in the schooling system. And so your books, and you have two of them. Why don’t you share the titles?

[Jon Dabach] 02:24
I know we talked about him just before the interview. But let’s let’s kind of review the two titles again. So people know what they are, can you hold it up for me? Sorry, I made them I made them on the shelf and getting them back down. The first one is, is called? Let’s see.

[Cletus Bulach] 02:44
It’s about school climate and learning


[Jon Dabach] 02:48
If you can just move it a little bit away. So its school climate and culture, visa vie, student learning keys to collaborative problem solving and responsibility. So that’s the first book and the second. The second book was called enhancing a high performance, school culture and climate. Talk to me about what was the impetus behind writing these books and how they’re related to school shootings? Oh,

[Cletus Bulach] 03:15
Well, then a year 2002. I have been into character education and bullying behavior. Creating surveys that measure that in schools and doing presentations on it across the country, and in Scotland and other countries. Free on my findings. And in the state of West Virginia.

[Cletus Bulach] 03:44
The governor at that time decided he wanted to have character education taught in the schools because he felt that the behavior of the kids was it was a problem. And it was part of a nationwide endeavor. At that time. Georgia is when I first got into it because in 2000. In 1999, Georgia passed a law requiring character at be taught in all the schools. That’s how I got into it because the local school district will help in will how do you measure let’s so let me stop

[Jon Dabach] 04:18
You there for a sec. Because I don’t remember. Because it was after my time having character education in schools. I also wasn’t in Georgia. So what does that look like? What does that what’s what does the curriculum even look like?

[Cletus Bulach] 04:33
Well, it’s crazy because when I found out I got the contract to evaluate what happened in the state of West Virginia, which is where were the material books come from?

[Cletus Bulach] 04:50
When I went around to every school district in the state, and talk to students and kids, students and teachers about what they liked about their Schools in their character at program. I got a lot of data. And I saw, I saw some great schools and I saw some godly, awful schools. I mean, where things were just Yeah, shame, a pity.

[Cletus Bulach] 05:17
And out of all that, I collected that data, and I decided I got to write a book that describes how to create a high performing school because I saw some in West Virginia, and what they were doing was very different from what was happening in low performing schools. And I realized that the biggest problem was the human relations that occurred in the school, just like what would occur in a marriage, or in any business in any organization where people have to work before we get

[Jon Dabach] 05:49
Before we get into the human relationships. Let’s just define because I’m not an educator, let’s define what a high performing versus a low performing school is. Is it just test scores?


[Cletus Bulach] 06:03
Well, test scores. Okay, let’s think let’s talk about a car going down the road. Gasoline is what makes it go right. And what’s the end goal on a car? High performance, and good gas mileage? Well, in a school test scores, is the product, good gas mileage? What do you get out of high performing school? You get good test scores. How do you get out of a high performing car, good gas mileage, good speed, and good performance?

[Jon Dabach] 06:38
So that’s the reliable barometer at which you can measure that is the

[Cletus Bulach] 06:43
Barometer test scores is the barometer, but it really isn’t. It shouldn’t be the barometer. What should be measured is what causes that. And are not they’re not measuring that. And it’s school culture.

[Jon Dabach] 06:57
And now we can jump back into that relations, because I think that was important to clarify.

[Cletus Bulach] 07:01
Yeah, the culture and the climate in the school is created by how people treat each other. When you walk in the door, how do you feel? Do you like working there? How do you get treated? You know, are you empowered?

[Cletus Bulach] 07:14
Or are you controlled, and all the things that go into the way people are treated just the way you are? And in any other situation, whether it’s a marriage or at your church, or wherever, there is a culture and a climate that that develops? Where when you walk in, do you feel good? Or do you say, Oh, my places this, and, and you have a feeling when you walk in about how things are? And I use an analogy and in the book of a of a

[Jon Dabach] 07:54
It’s okay, you take your time at work?

[Cletus Bulach] 07:59
Oh, what? Iceberg analogy. When you see an iceberg poking its way out of the ocean, there is a huge,

[Jon Dabach] 08:17
Much bigger than

[Cletus Bulach] 08:20
That’s comports what’s above. So when you walk into a school, what you see, and what you hear, creates a feeling for you. It’s like the iceberg. It’s what you see. But what’s below the surface is what the culture is is what people value and believe and how they treat each other. You can’t see it. But it’s there. And you really can’t hear it, but it’s there. But how do you identify that? And so that’s the secret to a high performing school.


[Cletus Bulach] 08:54
And it’s the secret to any healthy organization, going back to probably the kernels of what happens in human relations, and its openness and trust, which was when I started my was my doctorate in Social Psychology and Organizational Psychology.

[Cletus Bulach] 09:15
I was very interested in trust, and what causes it. Why do people trust each other? And I thought, well, openness has to have something to do with that. And it’s like a chicken and egg kind of thing. Would you be open to someone you didn’t trust? No. Would you trust someone that you weren’t open with no? Which comes first? And it all goes back to authenticity? When you see someone how you feel about you have an impression.

[Cletus Bulach] 09:51
Are they authentic? Are they really who they say they are? And if you get some feeling of authenticity, you begin a start trusting and you to open up to them a little bit. And how that goes, the trust process begins in the openness process begins and you begin becoming aware of each other. The same thing is true in any marriage or in any religion, parent,

[Jon Dabach] 10:14
Child, friend, or employee. Yeah, I could.

[Cletus Bulach] 10:19
Yeah. And, you know, as I went through asking these kids and teachers, what do you talk about your school like, I came to realize that the needs of these people are not being met, the needs of the kids aren’t being met, and the needs of the teachers aren’t being met. So I began looking at that I looked at some of the early philosophers going back to the 18th century.

[Cletus Bulach] 10:53
A moment here, I’ll come up with, but the first thing they said was, well, people, the question is, why do people behave the way they do? Which, which is the issue for shooters? Why did they do that? Why did they? Why would anybody do that? Why he could behave the way they do? Well, it’s because of their needs, what are their needs, causes them to behave the way they do.

[Cletus Bulach] 11:18
So the philosopher’s back on the 18th century identified, the first need that they identified was one that related to life itself. They wanted to be alive. But related to that was feelings of stress, anxiety, and safety.

[Cletus Bulach] 11:35
How did they feel in this environment? Were they scared? So you get to that one, and all the way to the end, from one extreme to the other of not feeling very good about it, to being feared for your death for your life? Yeah, that’s a spectrum. But all of that spectrum is a basic need that people have. Next guy comes along, he says, oh, it’s nature. Nature.

[Jon Dabach] 12:05
Is sure that

[Cletus Bulach] 12:07
Yeah, right, the agnostic. So the second guy comes along, and he says, well, yeah, that’s right. But, and I don’t have the names of the, I’m just looking over the literature they didn’t name who came up with this first one. Maslow Hierarchy would put that first need at the bottom need number one, okay, but he didn’t come up with that name. He came up way later on dealing with learning.

[Cletus Bulach] 12:39
But they pretty much agree that that need fear for your life and anxiety and stress and so forth was a major need. The second guy comes along, and I don’t have a name for that one either. But there was agreement that happiness is a neat life with no happiness is no life. You can’t be happy all the time. But moments of passion,

[Jon Dabach] 13:02
Resistance. Yeah, absolutely.

[Cletus Bulach] 13:06
I mean, then nature comes along in this the first person I could document that came up with a name. And surprisingly, this need just blows your mind. Because it happens every day. In our presidents Trump when I see him operating, I’m thinking this need is to uppermost in your mind when I think of Putin, and I think of and on and on with North Korea and China and what’s going on in my rack on a random net Venezuelan all over us just he says, Well, yeah, people are need to not fear for their life, and they want to be happy.

[Cletus Bulach] 13:51
But the big issue is not, that’s not the issue, the issue is control. He says people want to have some control of what happens in their life. Oh, wow. And I started looking into that. And you know, control takes place through the use of a form of power. Okay, now, way back when French and Raven, two brilliant organizational psychologists or whatever they were came up with a theory that there was a typology of power.

[Cletus Bulach] 14:32
And they came up with five forms of power. Three of the forms of power, position, power, reward, power, origin power. We’re controlling forms of power, hope that they can talk about I have added I’ve been now going to nine typology of power that I don’t think anyone is it’s not out there yet.

[Cletus Bulach] 14:58
And I just not the unable to get it out there. But there are nine forms of power that I’ve identified that give a person control. And here’s where the bully comes in and the shooters come in control is a major, major factor in any person’s life in any marriage. In any organization who controls what happens, and then the crazy thing is to be a good leader, you have to give control.

[Jon Dabach] 15:32
Yeah, you can’t you can’t hold on to everything as a leader. So that’s the ultimate control is the willingness to let it go.

[Cletus Bulach] 15:41
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, then, what do you say to somebody? You have to let people have control, right? Well, I’m the leader. I can’t let them have control. I said, yes, you can. You here’s the mantra for a true leader. You give control to people, but you don’t give it up? What do you mean, you don’t give it up by system? You know, a leader never gives it up? Well, what do you mean? I says, why don’t you give control using the five freeing forms of power? And when that doesn’t work, you take it back with the four controlling forms of power.

[Jon Dabach] 16:22
Oh, that’s, that’s the answer. You’re right. Oh,

[Cletus Bulach] 16:27
Well, so now, where do you want to go with this? Because we’ve got the five that Oh, you got three of the needs control.

[Jon Dabach] 16:37
Three real quick. There’s go through them again. I’m going to I’m going to take some notes.

[Cletus Bulach] 16:45
Well, there’s fear for your safety, your anxiety, your stress, and at this extreme on that one behavior, its fear for your life. Let’s

[Jon Dabach] 16:53
Talk about the power of the because I remember you went through three different power types of power that are controlling. So what Okay, so what are those again?

[Cletus Bulach] 17:03
Okay. You want to go through

[Jon Dabach] 17:07
Over a few weighty how they differentiate, we don’t have to go through all nine.

[Cletus Bulach] 17:12
Okay, well, just for example, what we’re doing right now, information, power, information is power. You share it with people, and they say, Wow, I didn’t think of that. But that’s right. I’m going to do that. So you know, when you share information, you don’t make them do anything.

[Cletus Bulach] 17:32
You just give them the information they can do with it what they want. But you know, if you tell your son or your daughter going out the door at 16, with the car keys, look, curfews it 10 o’clock, make sure you’re in at 10 o’clock. Information, right? What happens if they’re not in a tent? I don’t know, Cletus. I


[Jon Dabach] 17:53
Just my kids aren’t 16 yet?

[Cletus Bulach] 17:58
Well, you know, if you don’t take control back, when they come in and say, hey, son, you know, curfew was at 10 o’clock, and you didn’t do it? What do you think we ought to do about that? What do you mean? Well, you didn’t follow the

[Jon Dabach] 18:12
Rule, take the car away, right?

[Cletus Bulach] 18:13
I have, I have to do something, what do you think we ought to do? You know, so you take control back. Because when you give control and they don’t do what they’re supposed to do, so you get to, on the freeing forms of power information is probably the easiest one to use. Now, we go back to the fifth one, which is moral power. Putting moral power in place.

[Jon Dabach] 18:44
That seems kind of complicated,

[Cletus Bulach] 18:46
Is partly one of the wisest things any person ever did? But it goes back to what is the right thing to do.

[Jon Dabach] 18:54
And I think that as a parent, that’s what every parent’s strives for is giving your kids the, the moral compass that makes them or, you know, fuels them to make the right decision. Talk to me about how this relates to schools, though. How does How do you build these kinds of relationships between teachers and students or students amongst each other even?

[Cletus Bulach] 19:23
Well, if the big thing is how you do give control to the kids without giving

[Jon Dabach] 19:29
Them even jump there? Are you saying that there’s that shootings are from your research a result of a kid feeling a lack of control?

[Cletus Bulach] 19:41
Okay, we go back, we start with the five basic needs, because when we when we get hooked on nine forms of power,

[Jon Dabach] 19:50
Yes, that’s different, a whole

[Cletus Bulach] 19:53
30 to 50 minutes to into that one. So control is a May During a major factor, when kids have no control over what happens in school, they don’t like it. When teachers have no control, when they’re controlled by the administration by the school board and Ohio State and the feds, they don’t like it. Because control. When you use the freeing forms of power, you give control.

[Cletus Bulach] 20:26
When you do that, power is used to motivate. When you use controlling forms of power, you don’t motivate you control. And when you control, you breed resistance instead of immunization. So what happens in schools is, they’re told what the rules are. They’re told where to sit. They’re told what when to do this, and when to do that.

[Cletus Bulach] 20:53
And they have no control over what happens in school. And now when you get to extracurricular, and sports, and so forth, they have some control, and they love it. The teachers, by and large, don’t have much control over what happens to them, because there are so many regulations anymore, they must be on page, so and so it’s such a certain time, they must be teaching such and such at a certain time, and on and on. So when I was a teacher, I could do whatever I wanted.

[Cletus Bulach] 21:25
I could teach what I wanted, what I wanted. And even with German teacher, we used to sing German beer drinking songs. The kids just loved it. But you know what, they learned a lot of vocabulary during that. And they learn how to pronounce good German words. And they enjoyed it. And I enjoyed it, we had fun together. So control is a big, big factor.

[Cletus Bulach] 21:55
But that need is was not being met in many of the schools in West Virginia, and all across the United States that need is not being met. Teachers, many times feel like they have no control. Why do

[Jon Dabach] 22:08
You think there’s been such a shift? Because this, you know, this mass shooting is obviously growing, and it’s become an epidemic in this country? What happened? And when did it happen? That this control and the needs of the students and the teachers started to just slip away?

[Cletus Bulach] 22:30
Well, let’s go to the fourth need. And we’ll come on leave control, that the fourth Nene is caring. And that the literature is replete on the importance of nature versus nurture, nurture, if babies are held, if they’re cared for, how do they develop versus those that are not well, all the way through your life.

[Cletus Bulach] 22:55
Caring is a very important factor in any marriage sharing is critical. If you perceive that someone doesn’t care about you, or he woke up one morning and realize that nobody cares about me as a person, that’s a horrible, horrible feeling. Many that many people who do that suicide is the option. Now when you take add to it, the fifth need purpose and the purpose driven life. What was his name? Amo hotma. Gandhi. There’s another guy who’s written record driven life. And yeah, there’s a lot out there on that life with no purposes.

[Cletus Bulach] 23:47
No life. Life was no happiness isn’t a life. Life with no control is no life. If nobody cares about you isn’t okay. So what are you going to do if your needs aren’t being met? There’s the question. What happens in a school when a kid goes to school, and he may be being bullied, which is most of the shooters in some way or other? At one time or other? Were bullied me? Five foot 425 pounds as a high school senior?

[Cletus Bulach] 24:20
Yeah, you’re saying I wasn’t bullied? Yeah, I was a scrapper. And I fought like crazy. It made me tough. But I beat the crap out of some of those big no goods, you know. They eventually learned to leave me alone. But when a person goes to school, and they fear because somebody might pick on him and I went to school many times wondering if that guy was going to come after me again.

[Cletus Bulach] 24:50
And if you have no control over what’s going on, and you believe nobody cares about who the other kids don’t teachers don’t. And what is the kids want? I interviewed in West what’s Why do you go to school? What do you mean? This is why you go to school? I have to. You mean there’s no other? No, if I didn’t have to go, I wouldn’t go I hate school. And about 50% of the kids would say that, that they really don’t like school.

[Cletus Bulach] 25:17
So they have no purpose in going to school. They have no control, believe nobody cares. And they may be fearing for their life, what are they going to do? So when you get a gun, what do you get? When you put your finger on that trigger on power, control, control. And I’ll show them, I’m in control. And they now have a purpose. And along the way, they may be taking a few drugs, yeah, for happiness, make them feel good. Smoke a few joints.

[Cletus Bulach] 26:05
Or they may join a gang. Because again, gives them security. Suicide is always an option. A gun is always an option, joining a gangs, options, not going to school our options. I played more hooky than any other good at school, I hated school, I hated my four worst years of my life were high school. And I end up with a doctor angry, believe it or not.

[Cletus Bulach] 26:42
So we get back to the five basic needs, if they are not being met, you must do something. You cannot tolerate that in your life.

[Jon Dabach] 26:54
So on a big organizational system, like a school, I love what you’re saying. I mean, I think that, you know, yes. Is there could you point to a million other things like gun control or drug use solely or media and influence. But what’s at the heart of the issue?

[Jon Dabach] 27:11
Are the relationships we build in schools and the sense of joy and purpose that people have going to the school? I think that’s, you know, so to be bold enough to make that statement is kind of courageous sometimes. So let’s talk about what maybe some like, what do you because you were superintendent? How do you instill that into a school, it’s not one on one, it’s not like therapy or counseling, you have to do it on big kind of massive scale.

[Cletus Bulach] 27:40
Well, the problem is division, there is no vision that brings the whole group together. Chapter Five in my first book describes how you would bring the entire community together. That would take too long to get into, but there is a way but you start by giving the kids control. And it starts very simple. Techniques that are so simple, you think, well, everything that I write about, and what I say is common sense.

[Cletus Bulach] 28:21
There’s nothing highfalutin or highly theoretical about what I say or what I recommend. I’m a farm boy from Indiana, grew up one of seven kids. We were piss poor. But we had a great life. And everything I did and all my life if it didn’t come sense, I don’t want to hear it. So common sense would tell you, well, why you don’t ask them what they want you to do.

[Cletus Bulach] 28:48
I’m the new principal come into the school, I go to the teachers first day. Hey, guys, I’d like to know what you expected as your principal. Here’s some sigma five cards. Pass those out for me, I’m on each card, I want you to write one thing you expected me as your principal. If you need more cards, just holler and somebody will give them to you. And I would just say okay, let me know when you got three or four cars filled out.

[Cletus Bulach] 29:18
So I would just put on my thumbs and wait till they build out their cards as amended the center and collect them. And I would get their expectations of me as a principal. Well, why doesn’t a teacher do that the first day of school? What do you expect to me as your teacher? You build a relationship you say, I want to know what you guys expected.

[Cletus Bulach] 29:45
I’m listening to you. I’m open to you. The trust process I want to build that relationship with them. I mean, I’m working for you guys. So the theory throughout this whole thing is and throughout the Bible by the way, if you want to Get into religion, whether you’re Jewish or Catholic or whatever, Christian or whatever. It’s all about service.

[Cletus Bulach] 30:08
We are here to serve others. Well, why don’t we do that? Don’t you know there’s so much self-serving going on in our country as opposed to servant leadership, which is the theme throughout the book? And you can get on the web and look up servant leadership, and there are servant leadership. Pods throughout the United States, ones in Indianapolis about servant leadership, and there are a couple of others who espouse servant leadership.

[Cletus Bulach] 30:40
But there are many other forms of leadership, servant leadership is one, transformational leadership is another. Transactional leadership is another. In transactional leadership, everything is done for Yeah, what am I going to get? Trump is probably very good at that one. Transformational Leadership is all about change, bringing about change, and on and on with the different types of leadership, servant leadership is one.

[Cletus Bulach] 31:16
And it’s not one that is very prevalent today. But when you go back to the schools, as the schools, the United States began falling behind the schools in the rest of the world, that people up top, Feds and so forth, what do we do about the schools and you begin tightening down and controls, the more you tighten down and controls on the teachers, they tighten down on the kids.

[Cletus Bulach] 31:44
And the more you control, the more resistance and lack of performance that you get. So what we have in our schools today, is a lack of performance because the kids means that aren’t being met, because the needs of the people above are of concern, everybody

[Jon Dabach] 32:01
Got so hung up on falling behind. And they, they felt like the answer was more control, more kind of regulation, and that it’s kind of crippled the ability to develop relationships and, and kind of, yeah, it makes perfect sense to me, my favorite teachers growing up are the ones that somehow disregarded some of those kind of silly regulations of structure.

[Jon Dabach] 32:30
And were bold enough to say, today we’re going to talk about this, you know, and those are the ones that really made an impact on me personally, and I see it in my I have four kids, and they’re all in school, the teachers that that really resonate with them are the ones that care that they know care, that they that that make them have a sense of autonomy in the classroom will work.

[Jon Dabach] 32:51
Where do you guys want to sit? How do you guys want to perform this task as a group or individual, there’s a sense of ownership that the kids take on? That’s exciting to them. And, and it’s empowering to the teacher to because you see, the teacher sees that he’s he or she is building leadership in the kids. And that’s exciting.

[Cletus Bulach] 33:14
Yes, it is. Well, that they asked him, the kids, what you expect to me is your teacher’s one step, go one step further. What rules do you want me to enforce in this classroom? Here’s three by five cards write down, write down one rule on each card. So you give each kid three cards and you get 25 Kids, you get 75 cards back of what they want the rules. Because there’s one thing you quickly sort them and they come on piles.

[Cletus Bulach] 33:46
And you’ve come up with, you got five classes of kids, you got 100 plus different rules. And you come up with 10 or 12. Four, they pretty much agree these should be the rules in the school. And there’s one rule they never put in, because I’ve done this. When I was a teacher. The rule is a rule and that is never one that there is agreement. Oh, there’ll be some kids that put them but it’s never what’s the most

[Jon Dabach] 34:18
What did you find when you design as a teacher? What are the most common rules the kids did agree on? Yeah,

[Cletus Bulach] 34:27
Once they did agree on. Yeah, no favorites. They didn’t want a teacher. Don’t have any favorites in the classroom. Okay. Yeah, it was one of the ones. We don’t want you to show favorites to anybody. Okay, that was one of them. Of course. And that was a rule that we put up there, but it was one that they would enforce because, you know, I was the one who that was, that was an expectation that they had Have me then I wouldn’t.

[Cletus Bulach] 35:01
That was not a rule. It was the rules for the kids. But when the rules went up on the board, and somebody violated the rules, I would say, hey, somebody’s violating rule number two. Yeah, that’s all I had to say. Everybody who was violating Rule number two, the kids would look at the guy whose reading rule number two. What do you think wrote what that guy is going to do? Stop immediately. I can do a thing. Well, I

[Jon Dabach] 35:40
Think all this is so is so insightful. I you know, I don’t have the experience. I did teach after school programming for a little bit math classes. And I got to say, it was challenging. Probably one of the reasons I got into couples counseling is because I feel more at home, talking one on one or two on one than I did, managing a room of 40, you know, 10 year old 12 year old boys, which was kind of where I got stuck.

[Jon Dabach] 36:06
And I think having this thought process back when I was doing, it would have saved me a lot of heartache. And I’m sure it’ll save a lot of teachers and even parents, you know, heartache kind of thinking about it, let’s, I’m going to share your website in the show notes. Because there it is a little bit hard to spell.

[Jon Dabach] 36:26
So it’s West ga.edu. And then there’s a forward slash, and then a tilde key, which is right next to the one on the keyboard, and it’s C. Bullock. But I’ll put it in the show notes so that everybody could see it. There’s a lot of amazing, free information resources on your site. There’s also links to your books. Let me ask you this. And maybe we can kind of close with this. If you if you could give parents and teachers one piece of advice to take to make their kids school lives better. One actionable thing they can do today, what would it be?

[Cletus Bulach] 37:10
On this is for you and for them. When you’re counseling anybody and parents, you counseling your kids every day. If things aren’t going the way they’re supposed to go, I go back to the five basic needs and say, what are your needs being met? How do you feel about safety and so forth? Is are you okay with that? Are you happy? Do you feel like you have some control?

[Cletus Bulach] 37:40
You begin probing on the knees? Do you think like your parents, do you think like we care about you? Tell me what you think about that. And you’re talking to your kids. And even in a in a marriage counseling situation, you focus on the five knees, you look at the forces for and against about what’s happening in a situation, or what’s happening in the home.


[Cletus Bulach] 38:10
And you know, the technique I talked about force field analysis by Kurt Lewin, as a parent, you can go to your kid and say, Dad does a wonderful job as a parent because to your kids, yeah, let them fill it out. You do a better job if get get their feedback. Let them critique you great words. It’s just its just simple. It’s just simple common sense stuff. That all you got to do is ask sometimes for infant writing

[Jon Dabach] 38:43
Space where that can be in you where you can have that dialogue for sure.

[Cletus Bulach] 38:49
Yeah, getting feedback about how you’re coming across as a husband as a teacher, as anybody out there no matter what your role is in life, how do you come across getting feedback is very difficult and that force field analysis thing is so simple to use, because you can say Clet the luck as they did on the podcast with Mr. Spiritual od did a great job because they would do a better job if when I did my presentations on how to create a high performing school, I would say click below it did a great job with this presentation.

[Cletus Bulach] 39:33
Because complete as many times as you want, I do a better job if and I would write back my feedback. Getting feedback is probably one of the most difficult honest feedback is the most difficult thing to do. But it’s the easiest thing to do if you do it in such a way that people feel free to tell you and that force field analysis is the easiest way to do it.

[Jon Dabach] 40:03
Dr. Cletus Bulach, thank you so much for your amazing wisdom and sharing your time with everybody. I really appreciate you being on the program talking about such important topics. And, and yeah, and I’m going to leave links to everything in the show notes to kind of let people know where to go find more value. And again, I just appreciate your time.

[Cletus Bulach] 40:23
Well, can we come back sometime and dig into the ice

[Jon Dabach] 40:27
Like that very much. I think that’s a good topic for you to come back and we’ll do all night. We’ll block out an hour and we’ll do all night.

[Cletus Bulach] 40:37
Yeah, I think that’s probably if we can leave parents with anything or people out there with anything is how do you control people without giving it up? How do you give them control? Most people don’t know anything about the nine forms of power and the fact that there are five ways to

[Jon Dabach] 40:56
Without releasing from yourself

[Cletus Bulach] 40:59
Without giving it

[Jon Dabach] 41:01
Thank you. So I think that’s great. I’m like I’m going to have to schedule you for another session because I think that’s definitely worth jumping into in and of itself just as a topic, where we don’t get distracted with all the amazing other things that you that you teach.

[Jon Dabach] 41:15
The Thank you. If you’re interested in learning how to get the absolute most out of your romantic relationships then you’re in luck because I have put together a free workshop or masterclass if you will about three secrets that people in happy relationships have discovered.

[Jon Dabach] 41:32
You can view the workshop and mrspirituality.com/three secrets again, it’s completely free. Just go there and watch it. It’ll help you on your journey give you some wisdom. Some things to think about. The website again is mrspirituality.com/threesecrets. That’s mrspirituality.com/the Number three, the word secrets. It’s all yours. Enjoy.


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