Special Guest: Kelli Miller

Where you can find Kelli:
website: www.kellimillertherapy.com
instagram: @kellimillertherapy
wikihow: https://www.wikihow.com/Author/Kelli-Miller-LCSW-MSW


[Jon Dabach] 00:00
Today on the relationship Revival Show I have with me guest Kelly Miller Kelly is a psychotherapist, a best selling author and radio host her book thriving with ADHD has sold over 130,000 copies. She’s currently a relationship host on balanced by nature TV and a writer and relationship host for wikihow.com, which has an estimated viewership of over 116 million monthly users.

[Jon Dabach] 00:26
Kelly was a cohost on La talk radio with over a million listeners 250 guests, celebrities and authors and an expert radio personality for Sirius XM Radio. She was the woman’s relationship expert on the examiner.com and also the advice columnist for the largest listserv in the country as well as a freelance writer to over 12 magazines and newspapers. She was recently quoted in Oprah Magazine in three separate relationship articles and was a contributing author to the book Chicken Soup for the Soul messages from Heaven and other miracles in 2019. You’re listening to the relationship revival podcast with Jon Dabach, also known as Mr. Spirituality.

[Jon Dabach] 01:04
That’s me. I’m your host giving you insights and guidance from over 10 years in the field of this amazing journey we call romance on this show, I go over everything you need to know about how to get into a relationship, how to get the most out of a relationship, and sometimes even how to gracefully end a relationship without pulling your hair out and going crazy.

[Jon Dabach] 01:25
And occasionally, I’m even joined by new and old friends who are also relationship experts to bring you guidance and wisdom with new perspectives. Thanks for stopping by talking to Kelly Miller today on the relationship Revival Show. So excited to have you here. Thanks for coming. Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, my wife said that I might have ADD, she said I might have ADHD.

[Jon Dabach] 01:51
She says she’s not sure. And the truth is, when people talk to me, I’m super focused. So it never even crossed my mind. But since you’re kind of an expert in that world, I thought I would kind of pick your brain about how ATD or ADHD manifests and how it affects couples?

[Kelli Miller] 02:10
Oh, this is a great, great question. So first of all, the term they use now is ADHD across the board. Right? So back in the 80s, and 90s. It used to be add, and there was this distinction. But now even if you don’t have that hyperactivity piece, it’s just still called ADHD. Just to clarify, for

[Jon Dabach] 02:29
There’s no that that’s great. Yeah.

[Kelli Miller] 02:31
And so how it can affect relationships is in a lot of ways, I mean, it to me, the best thing that people can do if they have a partner with ADHD, or they suspect a partner has ADHD, is to educate themselves about what it means what it looks like, because a lot of things they can take personally.

[Kelli Miller] 02:49
For example, somebody with ADHD, their executive functioning may be off. So they may forget things, important dates and things. And then as a partner, you may feel like, Oh, they’re purposely doing that. How do they not remember? And so, you know, just educating Oh, okay, this is an executive functioning issue, that they may not be doing this on purpose. But, you know, things just are different. The brain wires are different than they

[Jon Dabach] 03:13
Are. So if you have to get picked up from the airport, maybe an Uber instead of relying on your husband, exactly. How so how else does it so other than, I guess, when someone doesn’t want it to end? But when it goes undiagnosed, and someone doesn’t know they have it? Yeah, that could lead to people just feeling like they’re insignificant in the relationship, because their partner isn’t paying attention or isn’t, isn’t kind of on time, or whatever it is, right?

[Kelli Miller] 03:41
Well, it’s like, if you really loved me, you’d be able to do XY and Z. And so a lot of times when I deal with couples, I have to explain No, it has nothing to do with how they feel about you. They’re just that that function is very difficult for them. It doesn’t come as easily to you as it does to them. And but then it’s on the person who has ADHD to figure out the best techniques and organization to use so that they can feel really feel fully functioning.

[Jon Dabach] 04:06
And well, let’s talk about some of those techniques. And some of those tools you can use to function what those look are like? Because you wrote a book about it? What’s the name of the book? It’s, it was a word, ADHD, right? Yeah. And it’s sold over 100,000 copies.

[Jon Dabach] 04:20
So you’re kind of a formidable person to be talking to about how to actually organize this. And we definitely are going to get into you know, how it affects a couple when they when one of their children have it as well. So what on an adult level first, what are some tools to kind of organize your life or help your spouse even organize their life as they are dealing with ADHD?

[Kelli Miller] 04:41
So both of my boys have it. I’m pretty open about that. And one of the best things that my older son said which I use for kids, adults, everybody is he said to me, Mom, I noticed that when I’m in the shower, I just drift off and I lose track of time. So now when I go in the shower, he says I put a timer on my phone. So I’m a big proponent of timers. So you know, it’s very easy to lose track of time for everybody.

[Kelli Miller] 05:03
But I think it really kind of sets the stage of, okay, I know time’s up, I got it, I got to finish, it’s you know, so you’re really, you’re putting you’re the hands of the timer to kind of help you keep you on track. So that’s one of the first things. And then I think it’s really just making organization as easy as possible for you. So if you’re constantly losing your keys, it’s okay, I’m going to put a dish by the front door, and I’m going to put my keys in when I when I enter the door, and I’m going to take them out when I leave.

[Kelli Miller] 05:35
And so it’s just really simplifying it or if you have multiple folders, it’s, you know, color coding, knowing that red is for this green is for this. And it’s really, you know, it’s up to the individual of how they’re going to remember it. So I’ve worked with them specifically on okay, how would you remember this?

[Kelli Miller] 05:51
What’s the best way for you? Or, you know, and for me, for example, like in a parking lot, I can never remember where I parked concert. So I just take a photo every time, a lot of where I’m sitting. Like that. So it’s those simple things that make a big difference.

[Jon Dabach] 06:08
Yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m a big proponent of it, I have the apple tag in my wallet, a little credit card thing. And I have it on my keys, so that I never look because I’m, you know, and it’s like, maybe I do, I don’t know, what are the How would you let’s say it’s undiagnosed? What are the signs that you might have ADHD so that, you know, you can you can start seeing if it really affects your life? Because now I’m curious like, well, I’m, so far everything you’ve said is totally in line. What are the kind of the telltale signs? Yes,

[Kelli Miller] 06:43
So I think the telltale signs are that you may start a project and then sort of drift off and do something else. It’s kind of one of the key things, there’s a hyper focus on something. So if you’re really interested in it, you may really hyper focus on it. So I think that’s where people get confused, but it’s like, no, I can I could do this all day. And so there’s a hyper focus on a specific thing.

[Kelli Miller] 07:07
There’s forgetfulness about it, especially with young kids like forgetting jackets, forgetting things at school. There’s, you know, there’s a difficulty with certain maybe some learning styles like in class and, and that involves, like, you know, fidgeting and, like needing to just constantly sort of stimulate yourself in some way.

[Kelli Miller] 07:29
So like, you might see a lot of kids like, you know, like doing this type of like fidgety and that type of thing. I try to think of the are like the kind of the main things I see it’s, it appears different in girls versus boys too. So you may see more that hyperactivity in boys versus girls.

[Jon Dabach] 07:47
What does it look like in girls when they don’t have might be a little bit more daydreaming?

[Kelli Miller] 07:52
Yeah, but a lot of times learning disabilities coexist with ADHD. So you may see a lot of people who have ADHD and dyslexia or ADHD and something else. So they coexist together a lot of the time, too. Yeah. So the one thing I would always say is, it’s, you know, people are really afraid to get tested or know, and I know a lot of parents were like, Oh, I don’t want to know, it’s almost like a denial.

[Kelli Miller] 08:18
And I’m always like, no, it’s, it’s the best thing to do to get early education and early testing. As soon as you have that Inkling because that information is power. You learn how to work with your kids, that kids can get extra help in schools. So yeah, I’m a huge proponent of

[Jon Dabach] 08:34
That, what does that extra help look like?

[Kelli Miller] 08:38
So you would get accommodations in schools. So in California, there’s something called a 504 plan, or you can get an IEP, which is an individualized education plan. And depending on where you are the four, the 504 plan is a little less structured versus that the IEP, but the accommodations would include extra time on tests, it would include some of those fidget toys like to actually use them. It would include things like speech and language, if they need it, it would include resource help where they’re pulled out of the classroom, or a teacher comes in to help them. So things like that that make a huge difference.

[Jon Dabach] 09:16
And where are you personally, I know you’re not a psychiatrist, but where are you personally, about kind of taking medication for ADHD?

[Kelli Miller] 09:25
So I’m neutral. I mean, I’ve heard parents anecdotally tell me it’s made a huge difference in our kids. And then I’ve heard, you know, teens that I’ve worked with who said, Oh, I was on medication, and I hated it. I felt flat. So I think it’s really it’s an individual decision.

[Kelli Miller] 09:41
I have I have not put my kids on medication. Not because I’m anti but just because I found that what I was saying earlier, those accommodations really made a difference. And if it ever gets to the point where I feel like it’s affected their self-esteem, or they feel like they’re not up to par, then I think I I consider it, but it’s been okay. So far.

[Jon Dabach] 10:04
Super interesting. Yeah. I mean, I’m thinking of it as an adult. And it’s a little scary to me because I’m thinking, Oh, maybe I do. Maybe I do have it my wife, what really kind of set her off in my own light is, when I’m at the table, I’ll, I’ll move things around. So if I’m sitting, and so I’ll move my glass and I’ll move it again. And I’m very fidgety. And I do have that hyper focus.

[Jon Dabach] 10:28
And I told her years ago, because someone said this to me, I don’t know, about 15 years ago, and I found it so empowering. And I just assumed everyone was this way. I said, you know, what was the phrasing? He said? Multitasking doesn’t exist. Oh.

[Jon Dabach] 10:46
And he’s like, you know, you can do a few things poorly. But like, you got to do one thing at a time, if you and I thought to myself, that’s why I can’t multitask. And I’ve kind of lived by that phrase for the last 15 years. And she’s like, well, no, most people can. And I’m fidgety.

[Jon Dabach] 11:01
And I, if I don’t I have, you know, a phone that goes off with alarms every few hours whenever I have an appointment, otherwise, I just won’t show up and pick up my kids. I just, I know, I like I’ll get lost in something. So maybe it’s super interesting. And that’s why I’m like, well, how do you fix it? So I feel like maybe I’ve done the high functioning part of it upsetting.

[Kelli Miller] 11:21
You’ve learned what you need. So I mean, that’s just part of it. Right? So the people that I’ve met who have ADHD are so creative, and so passionate, and so much fun to be around. And so I think there’s this stigma in our culture, that it’s like ADHD, people are lazy, or they’re not smart, or things like that. And I always try to to erase that myth. And then yeah, there are people like you if you do have it, who have learned to cope with it, and just know yourself and understand, okay, this is what I need to be successful.

[Jon Dabach] 11:50
Right. So interesting. So what is your practice look like today? Are you I know you deal with couples, you’ve probably have you done work with kids in the past as a social worker?

[Kelli Miller] 12:01
I did I have. Yeah. And then it got to the point where I had kids of my own, and it was just a little bit too much. So I kind of took a break from that. And now I’ve been my focuses is late teens, and then but mostly adults and couples.

[Jon Dabach] 12:16
And why did you know it’s so funny, because every time I got a call from a couple who’s looking for some counseling or some help, the one of the first things out of their mouth is I’m having the hardest time finding like a qualified couples counselor.

[Jon Dabach] 12:29
And I’ve seen that as a running theme is just there are so few people who, first of all want to take on that work. And secondly, really specialize in it whatever modality they practice, whether it’s just classic systems, or Gottman, or EFT, or a mug, or whatever it is. So few therapists and social workers and even coaches really know how to get in there and get their hands dirty and help people Why do you think, why do you think that is?

[Kelli Miller] 12:56
I think a lot of therapists are afraid of because it’s a very intense dynamic. And I think it’s a little bit intense for a lot of therapists. So it’s funny, I found that there’s two camps, people love couples, and people were like, oh, no, I don’t want couples.


[Kelli Miller] 13:11
Yeah, and so I’m definitely in the camp that I love it. So I think you need to be okay with a really intense dynamic that a lot is going to be going on. But yeah, I think you know, to me, when it comes to couples, it’s really just about just communication. It sounds so cliché and basic, but when one person isn’t hearing the other person, so really, to me, it’s like my role of just bridging that gap. And so that’s a large part of it, and then teaching the tools of how they can listen to each other better.

[Jon Dabach] 13:38
Well, how do you bridge the gap? What do you do you have like little magic wands, you pull out of your kit to kind of fix things? What tools do you use?

[Kelli Miller] 13:46
Yeah, so I mean, some of these couples will come in, they don’t really even have those basic tools. So it’s really it’s like the reflective listening of validating your partner. I think a lot of couples today feel like if they validate their partner, then they’re agreeing with them. And you know, I’m trying to get that distinction across like you can say, your partner, I understand what you’re saying to me, doesn’t mean you’re agreeing just means you’re hearing them, right, because I think that’s a big part of the puzzles.

[Kelli Miller] 14:11
A lot of these couples, they’re not feeling heard. So that’s really that first step is just building that back up again, and building that emotional connection. And then there’s obviously intimacy issues, so everything kind of stems on everything. So if the couple’s going to feel more heard, then they’re going to be more likely to have intimacy. So there’s all these things that just from a basic level, if you can help then you can build from there.

[Jon Dabach] 14:34
And do you use like certain, are you Gottman? Or do you kind of use your own work as a social worker? Is there a specific approach or I find that most people kind of pick and choose so even the imago therapist might have like one EFT form, or one, you know, one little worksheet or something? What’s your approach? What’s the way you

[Kelli Miller] 14:52
Yeah, I’m pretty eclectic. Also, I do a little bit of a Mongo to me. I mean, I don’t know I don’t, I don’t like to like focus. Son, one thing I really it’s so different with each couple. So it’s really what they need. I mean, some couples, like, but just like with individuals, and when I can do mindfulness with some and others are like, ooh, that’s too woo woo. For me, and you know, in some CBT, its like, goes over their head.

[Kelli Miller] 15:14
So I think it’s really specific. But to me, again, like I said, it’s just really like, trying to help, like, almost immediate or position of where I’m really trying to help the other people see where they’re coming from. So just do exercises alongside that, really, as a real strong baseline.

[Jon Dabach] 15:33
Very good. Yeah, I love that approach. It’s like, just feel it out, you know, that’s part of the part of the job of a qualified therapist is to figure out what the couple is going to react to. Sometimes it’s nice not to be I mean, some people, especially when they’re starting need that structure, you know, but some, you know, the, the longer you do it, the more you realize, sometimes breaking that structure is what’s needed for this particular couple. You didn’t start with couples, though, in your career, did you?

[Kelli Miller] 16:00
I always did. Yeah. Yeah, I always did. I always loved it. I did both. And I think they both are, I mean, I know some therapists who just do couples, or mostly just do individuals. I like the variety. I think that’s fun. Yeah,

[Jon Dabach] 16:16
That’s great. Well, what about your own life? What’s informed you some challenges, some obstacles in your own life that have kind of helped you be a better therapist?

[Kelli Miller] 16:27
I have so many, I think we take so many of our personal challenges. And it makes us richer therapists for sure. The biggest one is I got divorced about four years ago. And so in all honesty, I think that tremendously helped me as a couple’s therapist. Learning about communication skills learning about I think just being on the other side, it’s almost like you feel like you know, something that you didn’t when you were married, it’s kind of interesting. So it’s kind of like more broad, I’m

[Jon Dabach] 16:56
Fascinated, because I’m still married. And I hope to stay married. But what did you find out in the divorce that you didn’t figure out?

[Kelli Miller] 17:03
I think that number one, like, obviously, you both have to really stay in strong communication, I think that you just sort of live your everyday life, and you can kind of go along. And so those, those real honest check INS are huge. But I also think that each individual has to know how they feel. And so if somebody is a little bit checked out, they may not know totally how they feel.

[Kelli Miller] 17:26
And that leaves the partner kind of, you know, blindsided a little bit. So I think really stressing that importance of, of, as an individual, you checking in with how you’re feeling what’s going on with you, what do you need in this relationship? And so that’s one major thing I think I’ve learned, but also just like, the importance of writing out those waves. I mean, if you’re in a long term marriage, you know, for, let’s say, you know, 5060 years, and you’re struggling, it’s just a blip, right, in this long marriage.

[Kelli Miller] 17:56
And I think when people are when couples are going through, it feels like Oh, my God, it’s the end. And, and so it’s really just kind of riding those waves, and really making that distinction where people can kind of, you know, come back and say, oh, yeah, that that makes sense. I can sort of ride this blip. And, yes,

[Jon Dabach] 18:13
Absolutely, I think it’s interesting, because now I’m thinking back to possibility of me being ADHD, when there are kind of speed bumps in the road on our marriage, I hyper focus on the speed bump. So it becomes very uncomfortable, which is probably one of the reasons why I was driven to this work is like, I needed to fix my and thank God, and we have a really great marriage and everything.

[Jon Dabach] 18:35
But you know, it’s like, whenever there was a problem, like this is it, it’s over, I got to fix it, and nothing, and everything else disappeared. And so learning those tools, first and foremost came as just being useful for me. So that’s, that’s yeah, it’s a good point. I mean, in the long scheme of things, if you do have a 50 year marriage, once a month of working through a problem, it’s nothing.

[Kelli Miller] 18:57
Right? Right. But But then again, both people have to be truly committed to that process. And so that’s something else I learned. I mean, I have couples all the time, you know, come to my office, you can tell one person sort of has one foot out the door. So you know, it’s at that understanding that they both really need to be in. I mean, you could work with a, you know, a couple of one comes in and have like a small percentage of wanting to make it work. You definitely work with that and build it. But overall, they both they both really need to want I

[Jon Dabach] 19:23
Mean, at the end of the day, they walk through the door. So there’s some Right, exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. It’s it’s an it’s a much worse sign when you have a session scheduled to people and only one shows up. That’s happened. Yeah, that’s a whole different thing. Well, what do you feel is your greatest accomplishment in in life or in your career? I mean, it’s there. You know, there’s so much to choose from. Oh,

[Kelli Miller] 19:47
That’s a really good question. Yeah, I guess. I think for me, it’s just overcoming obstacles, and then not letting it get me down just the resilience around it. So uh, you know, in my personal life, I had some infertility and we have to use a surrogate for second sets have kind of started that way. But then, you know, through the divorce and so really overcoming all of that, and then pushing harder for me it was like, okay, if I’m, you know, going through this stuff I just kind of, I do I focus on my work and other things to kind of get me through. And so yes, I wrote the ADHD book.

[Kelli Miller] 20:23
And I was excited, because it did really well. And I got a couple Book Awards. So that was exciting. But yeah, I mean, and then obviously, having my two kids and really teaching them that ADHD is not a deficit, even though it’s called Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. But it’s not a deficit. It’s just a different way of of wiring. So really teaching them those skills, so they don’t grow up and shame or feel that they’re less than at a young age. Those are those are some online.

[Jon Dabach] 20:55
Yeah, nothing to nothing too. Too shabby there. Is there someone you admire that kind of informs your perspective of the world?

[Kelli Miller] 21:06
Hmm. I love that. I love Oprah. I just love Oprah. And Michelle Obama, those two are my favorite. I think they’re both very strong women. They’re very wise. Again, very resilient. And I think, you know, I look at all the people that and also Pema children, she’s a Buddhist, like a monk and kind of a guru. And if you look at all these people, they’ve got they’ve had really hard lives. And so I think that’s one thing I’ve learned is we think of these people, these professionals, and Oh, they’ve had it so easy. It’s like, no, that they got their strength because they overcame these obstacles. So it’s wisdom through the pain. And that’s how they evolved. I always

[Jon Dabach] 21:48
Tell my clients, you know, if you, if you ever look at an x ray, right, everything looks clean. And I learned this as when my kid broke his bone, and then the bone breaks, you see this crack. But if you take the x ray, the because one of my sons broke his clavicle when he fell off a couch to real simple slides, you know? And the break was a question if there was even a break there. Right? So they, they took the X ray, they’re like, we think there’s a break because of the way but we don’t know for sure.

[Jon Dabach] 22:18
We’ll know in a few weeks. I’m like, why is that because you’ll be able to see where the break was in the X ray. So lo and behold, six weeks later we go in, and where the break was the bone has built up so strong, that there will never be a break there again.

[Jon Dabach] 22:34
And that’s how the bones heal. And I think it’s a great analogy for you know, emotional growth. It’s like, okay, when you when you learn how to heal something properly, properly, not only is it heal, it’s now strong, so strong, that that won’t even be an issue typically moving forward when you do the work the right way. And you know, it’s reflected in your physiology. That’s just the way things work. It’s so I think you’re right learning, learning that growth and come in coming from the pain really makes people so strong, it’s such an opportunity for growth. I love that you said that. I love

[Kelli Miller] 23:06
Your analogy. I’m a visual person. So I’m like, Oh, I can totally see that.

[Jon Dabach] 23:09
It was staring at me black and white on this big screen. And you know, you see this straight line, and then this big bump, I’m like, What’s the bump is like, that’s where the bone, you know, grows, and you will he’s like, You will never have a break in that exact spot again. So I was like, Wow, that’s crazy.

[Jon Dabach] 23:26
Well, if you could tell people, other than just learn how to communicate, right? If you might tell a couple. This is one thing you could put into your marriage or your relationship right now, that will make things 10 times easier. What do you think that would be?

[Kelli Miller] 23:42
So one thing I’m starting to write a book about this, and I talked about it is I like to play the game who is more emotionally invested, right? So we have a couple, one person really wants to go to the movies, one person really wants to go out to dinner. And you know, it starts kind of an argument or resentment because he wants it, she wants it. And so what I typically do is okay, so you know, on a scale of one to 10 how badly do you want to go to dinner? The person may say, well, maybe a seven, we went out last night.

[Kelli Miller] 24:12
And then I said, Hey, that person, you know, how badly do you want to watch the movie? You know, we’ve not seen the movie in aged. I’m like a nine. And so it’s really just, you know, getting honest. But people are typically really honest in there, in their scaling systems, like people were assuming Yeah, but what if, you know, we’re not us? And like, No, I’ve never really seen that people are just because they recognize Okay, they’re gonna win the next one or you know, that type of thing.

[Kelli Miller] 24:35
So, just simple technique to kind of because we get we get so strong and like, like, really want this and like there’s so much built up in that but when we just kind of simplify it, it makes it easy for couples. So that’s just something simple and easy. Yeah, I like

[Jon Dabach] 24:48
the scoring system because it’s, it’s self-reported. And the other thing that I think it would help combating is there are lots of people out there I just talked to a couple before this call, where they both Have a passive communication style. And so it’s like, well, whatever you want, but then if you if you put it in different terms like where do you want it on a scale of one to 10?

[Jon Dabach] 25:11
I could, I could hear a lot of my own clients saying a nine and the other partner being like dumbfounded, like, I would have never guessed it was a nine, because we just weren’t verbalizing that. But that’s how they feel inside. And so you’re giving them this really great tool to express it on a numerical scale to where it can communicate kind of to anybody. So it’s kind of that’s really, that’s really clever. I like that. What’s, when do you think that book might be finished? Well, it’s

[Kelli Miller] 25:36
Literally in publishers hands as we speak. So, you know, keeping Fingers crossed. So I wrote the proposal proposals, like 40 pages of like, why that you think the book will sell? Who’s the audience? It’s a whole sample chapter. So I did that sent it to my agent. And so she’s hand delivering it. So what’s

[Jon Dabach] 25:54
Publishing journey? Like a lot of people who listen to the show are other therapists and other social workers, what’s that been like for you?

[Kelli Miller] 26:00
So there’s two routes, right? So you could self-publish, or you can go through a traditional publisher. And so I’ve done both one of my relationship books I self-published, and then the ADHD book was a traditional publisher. And I think both have its advantages.

[Kelli Miller] 26:17
Self-publishing, you get a lot of autonomy. You get design the artwork, it’s basically all on your own, but then the marketing may be lacking where you need to pick up from there. And that’s the benefit of a traditional publishers, they’ll do the marketing for you, they’ll do the publishing. But then again, they choose the artwork and the editor and kind of have the last say, so it’s really up to you.

[Kelli Miller] 26:40
And then with a traditional publisher, you do have to typically do those proposals. So there’s work involved. But yeah, but either way, I mean, I applaud anybody who goes down the route it’s a tough feat, but it’s so worth it. And I think it’s an it’s a wonderful journey.

[Jon Dabach] 26:58
Well, yeah, you had such a wonderful success of the carrot at the end of that is, is pretty nice. For sure. Well, thank you so much for being with us. If you want to get in touch with Kelly. You could find her on Instagram at Kelly Miller therapy.

[Jon Dabach] 27:17
And that’s ke ll i So Kelly Miller therapy, and your website is also just Kelly Miller therapy.com Correct. Thank you so much for being here. It was an absolute pleasure. If you’re interested in learning how to get the absolute most out of your romantic relationships then you’re in luck because I have put together a free workshop or masterclass if you will, about three secrets that people in happy relationships have discovered.

[Jon Dabach] 27:45
You can view the workshop and mister spirituality.com/three secrets again, it’s completely free. Just go there and watch it. It’ll help you on your journey give you some wisdom. Some things to think about. The website again is Mr. spirituality.com/three secrets. That’s Mr. spirituality.com/the Number three, the word secrets. It’s all yours. Enjoy.


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