My Guest today is Dr. Patricia Timerman. Dr. Timerman is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor and Marriage and Family Therapist in the state of Florida. Dr. Timerman graduated with her Masters and PhD from Barry University. He areas of expertise include grief, suicide grief, clinical evaluation for immigration purposes, and relationships/ couples. Dr. Timerman has developed the IAP Model: Intention Action Perception in working with couples, which she calls the “Google translate of communications.”
You can find Dr. Timerman at:
[Jon Dabach] 00:00
What a great show we have in store for you. Today, I introduce you to my new friend out of Florida, Dr. Patricia Timerman, it’s not her full name, I think it’s Timerman Barbosa de Silva, she’ll go into the history on her name. She is a licensed mental health counselor and marriage and family therapists working out of Miami with their own group practice.
[Jon Dabach] 00:22
And she has some amazing experience in different things like grief, suicidal grief, clinical evaluation for immigration purposes, which was hugely eye opening, and is totally, totally related to the field of relationships, especially it deals with people that are here and don’t know their rights. And they’re in a somewhat abusive relationship and how she helps them kind of through her counseling work get freedom from a dangerous situation.
[Jon Dabach] 00:54
So, we go into that quite a bit. And she also talks about her I A P model, intention, action perception, which she calls the Google Translate of communications. And I got to tell you, I’ve already had a chance to put this into practice in my own work, and it is brilliant.
[Jon Dabach] 01:12
So, if you are struggling to understand what your partner really means, when they say certain things, this is the show for you. You’re listening to the relationship revival podcast with Jon Dabach, also known as Mr. Spirituality. That’s me. I’m your host, giving you insights and guidance from over 10 years in the field of this amazing journey we call romance on this show, I go over everything you need to know about how to get into a relationship, how to get the most out of a relationship, and sometimes even how to gracefully end a relationship without pulling your hair out and going crazy.
[Jon Dabach] 01:49
And occasionally, I’m even joined by new and old friends who are also relationship experts to bring you guidance and wisdom with new perspectives. Thanks for stopping by, did you start your group practice? Right away? Was that your goal or how did it?
[Patricia Timerman] 02:06
that was not my goal whatsoever. Um, it kind of came out of my supervision. Because I during my master’s, I also worked at a law firm. And so, an immigration law firm. So, I got to see a lot of like, the legal aspects and I, I like working with trauma. I work a lot with suicide, grief, grief, trauma, survivorship, and I’ve been doing a lot of couples, especially doing COVID. But I couldn’t find a place that trained the gap between the legal and the psychological. And so that’s I kind of started by just doing trainings on boats on kind of the gap in practice, what
[Jon Dabach] 02:52
does that mean? Exactly?
[Patricia Timerman] 02:55
Um, for example, there’s just one of the VISA as it’s called the Violence Against Women Act, when you hear that your assumption is what only women are eligible, of course, yeah, right.
[Patricia Timerman] 03:06
It’s not if you are victim of domestic violence, that is either the child off parent of or the spouse of a lawful permanent resident, or US Citizen, who is the abuser, right, if you’re abused by those individuals, you get to apply for the Violence Against Women Act, you get to even apply two years after having been divorced. Right.
[Patricia Timerman] 03:35
So, a lot of people think that they have to stay with their abuse with their abuser. During that time. That is not the case is when it comes to immigration, immigration is very strict. So, this gets to be one of the most flexible, which is a difficult word to say new immigration, because they are very cognizant that you may not be able to get the birth certificate or the green card of your abuser.
[Patricia Timerman] 04:00
So, anything that proves that could suffice. As a clinical psychotherapist, you can write the clinical evaluation, you can help guys, so I do a training. I just opened up platform and we just became see providers. So, I do a training on the composition of clinical evaluations for vows for asylum for you visa for trafficking visa and explaining all of them.
[Patricia Timerman] 04:28
So, becoming aware of that you get to give a voice or help not give a voice but help your client find their voice. Right by identifying the myths and barriers that keep them from leaving an abusive relationship, especially as it relates to immigration. Sorry, I get very passionate about it,
[Jon Dabach] 04:49
and I can go on and I want to hear more. I mean what’s so do people actively search for you knowing that or how does this evolve? Is it something where you’re seeing clients who are in a and you advise them? And is it being it kind of a nice?
[Patricia Timerman] 05:09
We’ve had clients that through our, they’re like my one of my therapists called me saying, hey, I have this client. And this is what’s going on. And I think she may be able to apply for the Violence Against Women Act. So, then we have their different attorneys. Again, I worked at an immigration law firm, my sister is an immigration attorney, my husband is an attorney.
[Jon Dabach] 05:31
So, the whole spectrum kind of,
[Patricia Timerman] 05:34
I have the whole spectrum, right. So, we have like resources to give out but sometimes through either there’s a wonderful organization, if you’ve ever heard of them called No More Tears.
[Patricia Timerman] 05:45
So, mea Lea, she was oh my god, I love to introduce you guys. She was a Bollywood actress came here, open over tears, she put her heart and soul into it, which was specifically a first for immigrant victims of domestic violence.
[Patricia Timerman] 06:01
They were seeking help. And they provide they have for example, with me with advocate to create a partnership where we provide at a discounted rate, right, and clinical evaluation, they will have partnership with gynecologist they will have partnership with attorneys, they will have like, with different individuals that were different professionals that would become kind of like a team. So
[Jon Dabach] 06:27
They do they act as like a point person for someone who’s going through it?
[Patricia Timerman] 06:32
Yeah, I mean, she’s what I can speak about. So, Mea Alicia is I mean, a beautiful person inside and out. Like
[Jon Dabach] 06:38
sounds like I have to have her on the show. So, I’ll we’ll save some of that.
[Patricia Timerman] 06:41
For how I’ll definitely introduce you. So, there’s this, I interned for her Imagine that. He was at a woman survivors house and her husband showed up, she pretended to be a me.
[Jon Dabach] 06:54
She’s got undercover work.
[Patricia Timerman] 06:58
Related, she’s wonderful. And so, we work with them. We have the same partnership with IE justice, that we do it at a discounted rate. So, either comes from the immigration attorneys, I’ve worked with a couple different immigration attorneys, or through the actual therapy, or what happens a lot too is through the clinical evaluation. They then continue therapy.
[Jon Dabach] 07:22
Yeah, sure. Yeah. Wow. That’s fascinating. And that, that’s how you kind of started I mean, it’s where you interest. So that was kind of an introduction to a specific branch of therapy, like, right out.
[Patricia Timerman] 07:34
Yeah. And I mean, because I worked at the immigration law firm. I remember her intake forms, I’m like, these are I’m speaking Spanish to those individuals, like they really don’t know. There’s so many like, myths regarding immigration, you’re very scared to I mean, I’m an immigrant myself.
[Patricia Timerman] 07:52
And I remember before having my green card, like I was scared of traveling and what people they’re scared of going to the airport. Yeah. So being able to I remember, like revising, I’m like, no, no, these are the questions you need to ask. These are things that like, they need to understand that we don’t care about your immigration status here. It makes absolutely no difference. I’m
[Jon Dabach] 08:13
making them feel safe and secure. So, they can they can open up and they can talk about their issues. Yeah.
[Patricia Timerman] 08:19
I mean, with knowledge comes power. Right? And if you look at my website, I have Walker with awareness comes huge with advocacy. So
[Jon Dabach] 08:29
where are you from? Originally? You mentioned you were an immigrant.
[Patricia Timerman] 08:31
[Jon Dabach] 08:31
Brazil. When did you when did you make the move to the states?
[Patricia Timerman] 08:36
2001. I was 14 years old. Wow. Wow. Yeah.
[Jon Dabach] 08:40
That must have been as a 14-year-old geez, that’s talking about a culture shock. Wow.
[Patricia Timerman] 08:47
And it’s interesting, right? Because my sit my I came with my mother, my brother, my older brother and my older my oldest sister. She’s five years older than I am, because I was 14. My acculturation was different from there. So, I’m a lot more Americanized, like I left the house before marriage, right.
[Patricia Timerman] 09:12
Whereas my sister only left after marriage. My brother stayed more than I did. But once I came back from NYU, I came back home like I can’t this was I’m telling my grandfather’s a mama leave. Why do you know Jewish woman leaves the house before? Yeah. So yeah, even coming at the same time because we were different ages. It was a different experience.
[Jon Dabach] 09:39
So, are you How many languages do you speak then?
[Patricia Timerman] 09:42
fluently that I actually do sessions in is Portuguese, English and Spanish and
[Jon Dabach] 09:48
conversationally, it sounds like you have some secrets in the bag.
[Patricia Timerman] 09:51
I dabble in Italian very limited French I used to speak Hebrew. I needed stability. But, but in Brazil, I grew up in a Jewish school. Right? So, you’re
[Jon Dabach] 10:04
a polyglot. So, you probably pick up words pretty quickly. And yeah, but you’re right. Having sessions is a whole different ballgame. Yeah. Whole different.
[Patricia Timerman] 10:13
Oh, my God and writing clinical evaluation in a different language I did in Portuguese once. And that was difficult. Yeah.
[Jon Dabach] 10:20
In Spanish. So, you do them all in English? What’s the situation?
[Patricia Timerman] 10:24
I usually I will do the sessions in Spanish. But the evaluation, I will translate the progress notes is different. Because when you’re doing a clinical evaluation, you know how progress notes because you said you’ve got so you only provide enough information. But for clinical evaluation, you actually are more like contemporaneous notes. Because you need to provide context, right really identifies the information credible,
[Jon Dabach] 10:51
because it becomes a legal document for them to use in other areas. Right?
[Patricia Timerman] 10:55
Exactly right. And if I believed in the case, then I’m going to fight for it. So, I provide context for the officer or if it’s in the court for the judge who was reading. So, I will translate everything to English. I will put the quotations of certain things that they said in either Portuguese or Spanish, but I just I would, I may write it all in Spanish, but when I put it on, I It’s a big burden
[Jon Dabach] 11:21
for you. I mean, when I know you have a big group practice, how many of you are bilingual?
[Patricia Timerman] 11:27
I have so myself, I have our clinical director jenever Pearson, she’s not she speaks English. And my other therapists Michelle Hart, who speaks English and Spanish. Okay,
[Jon Dabach] 11:40
so, there’s at least a couple of you who can handle the load a little bit. I
[Patricia Timerman] 11:45
mean, Miami, I learned Spanish because I live in me
[Jon Dabach] 11:50
Yeah, I know, I know a bit of Spanish. I was never quite fluent. I live in LA. But I grew up kind of speaking Spanish and Hebrew in the home. And so I held on to Spanish more, I feel like than Hebrew, which is kind of funny. Yeah. Although I still use Hebrew, my dad’s Israeli, so I still use it from time to time he, it’s funny, like, I’ll speak to him in Hebrew. And he’ll answer me in English. He’ll go what? And so, I’m like, come on, I’m trying. I’m trying.
[Patricia Timerman] 12:20
When when I moved here, I didn’t speak English, right. So, when I would try to speak English, Hebrew would get in its way. And now I, when I went to Israel, my niece just did her Bar Mitzvah at the Kartel. Last August, beautiful June, August around that, and I’d like I went there and I’m like, oh my God, let me put in words, I remember a for mother.
[Jon Dabach] 12:46
Funny, I always notice when I start when I go to another country, whether it’s Mexico on vacation or Israel, once I switch out of English, my brain confuses all the languages it’s like that center of the brain that holds foreign languages goes, I don’t know what to throw it and I’ll answer someone for in Mexico in Hebrew by accident, or vice versa and Israel. So, it’s like, they get mixed up. And I like I feel myself hitting. I’m like, Hey, wrong. Or sometimes I don’t even notice and my wife will be like, switch gears here. Hit the SAP button. Come on.
[Patricia Timerman] 13:26
You know what’s funny, I told them, I have this client who recently moved from Brazil is young, I don’t usually see kids, but it just happened to be a Brazilian kid. And we were talking about when I started speaking English. And I said, you know, it’s funny. I my English started to actually come out after my first dream in English. Oh, weird.
[Jon Dabach] 13:46
I hear I hear that’s when you know, your brains making the transition when you make? Yeah, and I’ve never had a dream in any other language. That’s how I know I’ve never been completely fluent. Because it’s just like,
[Patricia Timerman] 13:57
I can’t cuz up to that point. You kind of translate. Yeah,
[Jon Dabach] 14:00
that’s right. It’s not natural. It’s every word gets sent through the filter. So is that I know, your full name is Patricia Timerman Barbosa de Silva. And I think in the Hispanic culture isn’t the first part of the last name, the real last name. Is that why you go by Dr. Timerman, or there’s another
[Patricia Timerman] 14:19
No, no. So, the Zimmerman is my maiden’s name. Okay. My name for 33 years of my life was Patricia Timerman. So even when I got my PhD, they asked, well, what are you doing because now you’re married? I’m like, no, no Dr. Patricia Timerman, that one because that’s how people kind of know me and they my students call me Dr. T. My client was like, just short nature. Barbosa de Silva.
[Patricia Timerman] 14:47
Like it’s difficult. I did an interview at NPR and they asked me my name and I said by last name Barbosa de Silva, and each time it was said differently or spelled differently Um, but my husband’s name contains his mother’s maiden name and his last name his father’s last name. The entire name is Barbosa de Silva, which is Portuguese, right? So, people usually say Silva Barbosa DE SILVA it’s very difficult for somebody to get the entire one less name is Barbosa Silva. Yeah,
[Jon Dabach] 15:26
yeah. And I’ve seen I’ve, and I’ve seen like some people’s immigration papers from a couple generations back when I was learning Spanish that had someone to something to something does something and it was like four generations back. And they say that’s and like, they would always it’s like the I forgot how it was. But I was taught in Spanish class that the first name of the last name block was the most recent and that’s why everybody ended up with like Sanchez here, because when they came here, they’re like, well, the last one must be the right one. So, let’s cut it off there. And it’s like, no, no, no, no.
[Patricia Timerman] 16:02
No way that it’s done. And it’s funny because for me again, it was like just Patricia to visually see it. I don’t I didn’t see much in Brazil, but I guess it’s because I grew up in third generation Eero Brazilian Jewish community, right. But outside of that you usually see so trying to like for me, my name would have been Patricia Grunfeld, Timerman, because Brookfield is my mom’s name, Timermann would be the actual name, which is the father’s name, essentially. So that’s what you see a lot. So
[Jon Dabach] 16:35
interesting. Okay, well, Timermans your maiden’s name, but it’s what you go by. So, we’ll stick with
[Patricia Timerman] 16:41
or the professional profession is like, yeah, Dr. T, I’m like, it’s
[Jon Dabach] 16:44
you’re at a wedding. You look for the Barbosa DE SILVA name cards, though, right? Oh, my God,
[Patricia Timerman] 16:49
if I’m in a wedding, you see the longest name. My clinical director for my friend recently got married just last year. That’s great. And I saw like my name, like, you see everyone’s name like this, and then my name.
[Jon Dabach] 17:07
It’s funny. My husband, let’s talk a little bit, you know, the, I’m always fascinated by fascinated by all kinds of modalities of therapy and counseling and everything, but I do try to steer towards the relationship, because that is the kind of core focus and I know you do couple’s work. I know you’ve developed your own model.
[Jon Dabach] 17:28
Before we get into that, what’s your background? So, what kind of modalities Did you resonate with and connect with? And where did you see the gap to develop something of your own?
[Patricia Timerman] 17:39
Fair enough? Fair enough? So, from just modalities like across the board outside of just like, couples, I am very much a CBT. Girl. Okay. Right. I resonate with cognitive behavioral therapy, because it’s the way in which we see the world is the way that we experience it, right. So, there is a fact there is how we experience we perceive it, and then how we experience it. Um, even like the whole concept of, you know, 90, there’s 10% unemployment now, I’m freaking out.
[Patricia Timerman] 18:11
I’m going to stay in my job because there’s nothing better out there versus there’s 90% employment. Oh my god, this is amazing. Let me look for a better job is the exact same thing looked at in a different way. But when doing couples, I am Gottman? Yeah, I love Gottman, too. I tell all my clients I’m like if you let’s say you meet with me and you’re like Dr. T.
[Patricia Timerman] 18:35
I love you. You’re amazing. Going to stay with you versus you’re not the one for me. Thank you so much. I tell them no matter what get the Seven Principles for Making marriage work. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. And I love that I usually use them.
[Jon Dabach] 18:51
Always on my desk.
[Patricia Timerman] 18:53
I you know, I took it out when we’re going to meet and I just put you back on my library. But I always have
[Jon Dabach] 18:59
like a handbook. It’s just sometimes I forget open ended questions. I’m like, when let me
[Patricia Timerman] 19:05
and I always tell my clients because one client got the audio. Yeah. And I said, No, no, no, no, no. Because you have work there’s work to do. Yeah, any the audio you don’t get the like fondness Yeah, the love met questionnaire, like,
[Jon Dabach] 19:20
by the way you do, but it’s awkward. So, like, because someone told me so. So, it’s like, it’s like question one. And I’m just like, you don’t nobody wants to hear that. It’s so yeah,
[Patricia Timerman] 19:29
I don’t want someone else’s voice. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I use the Marriage Clinic when I teach. Okay, great. Right. And I love that I’m, I’m very scientific research base, like, research base and Gordmans way of writing is very sarcastic. Yeah.
[Jon Dabach] 19:48
Oh, tongue in cheek. Right. Sure. Yeah.
[Patricia Timerman] 19:50
I appreciate that. And he talks about the different theories and practices right because there’s a difference. Yeah, from when we actually put a theory that sounds Good when you put into practice, like a doesn’t necessarily have some kinks in it right. But mainly what I use from gotten mine aside from the four horsemen, of course, is the emotional bank account. Yeah. Love man
[Jon Dabach] 20:14
and the way to make account that stuff, right? Yeah.
[Patricia Timerman] 20:17
And the way in which I tell clients is the emotional bank account, which is great. Through research through just looking at the couples coming and going for years on that kitchenette lab that he had, he noticed that there was a five to one ratio, ratio, right. So, the deposit, and I said that the currency for the emotional bank account is the love language. And that’s when Chatman comes about. Yeah. And the currency exchange is the intention action perception.
[Jon Dabach] 20:48
And that’s your IAP model. That’s the IEP. Got it. Yeah. Tell me more about that.
[Patricia Timerman] 20:54
Um, so I will start by talking about the love language because one of the things that I noticed is that people in general, right, if they heard of love languages, they usually believe that is a one size fits. All right. So if I give love through gifts, giving, that I receive love through gift giving, that’s not the case.
[Patricia Timerman] 21:14
The way in which we give love can be different from the way in which we receive any can also be different based on the relationship we have with different people. Right? So I just because I’m loquacious I’ll go for it if I use myself, my in my family as anecdotes, because it’s just easier I do all the time. Yeah, right. Like you are an expert of your life I can’t talk about I
[Jon Dabach] 21:39
feel like it’s more responsible for me to at least tell you about me than like fictionalize a client at times, mazel tov
[Patricia Timerman] 21:47
are the same way. And so, and I have so much to choose from. So, the example I give is my mother-in-law. She shows love through gift giving. Right? That’s her way of expressing herself. But she doesn’t receive love from gift giving. She receives love through acts of service. Okay, that makes now my, my husband does not receive love to get receiving.
[Jon Dabach] 22:12
Neither do I. I relate with him. Yeah.
[Patricia Timerman] 22:15
So, when if I were to give you a gift, and you say no, thank you. You’re rejecting my love.
[Jon Dabach] 22:20
I’ve learned not to do that. But yeah.
[Patricia Timerman] 22:24
I had to kind of teach them right a little bit. I feel like I’m the Google Translate. And that’s what I usually say I P is that Google Translate? Yeah. And one of the things that I was like for my husband, he receives love to quality time. But his whole message of not getting the gift is not just a rejection is No, Mom, I appreciate it. I rather you spend you the money on you.
[Jon Dabach] 22:48
You’re really doing it from a good place. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But it
[Patricia Timerman] 22:52
doesn’t translate? Of course not. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s when I say that the currency exchange is the AAP because it’s now, I’m understanding the message behind what I’m doing. So intention, action, perception, again, came from me and my husband, and I think I’m going to cite something that
[Jon Dabach] 23:13
most couples go through. And you can see the CBT foundation behind ILP, which is so cool, because it’s, yeah, it kind of loops that into the garden kind of methodology.
[Patricia Timerman] 23:25
And you work so well, right? Because intention is internal. But so is perception. Right? The only thing that’s external is action, right? So, my husband and I had a fight. I walked away. And in my mind, I’m thinking if you care about me, you’re going to follow me. So, you know, most women think that yeah, that has been, that is not a fact.
[Jon Dabach] 23:50
That’s my biggest thing I show on almost every session with what I deal with women one on one, I always tell them like, the first thing you have to keep in mind is men are not mind reader’s data that we are not telepathic. We don’t know what’s going on in your head.
[Patricia Timerman] 24:06
You know, one thing that I see a lot silence. Yeah. What’s the intentionality behind your silence? Yeah. Right. Yeah. But so, in this example, when I walked away, and he didn’t walk after me, of course, you know, I’m not gonna say profanities here, but something hit the fan. Yeah. It didn’t. So afterwards, I went to him, and I asked, why did you not follow me? And he told me, you created space. So, I was respecting you, right?
[Patricia Timerman] 24:34
And that sounds like we’re away. Some sounds a mess. Yeah. And the same thing with silence. I have this client that she says, I keep on fighting with my, my, my husband, he doesn’t respond, and his silence just makes me angry, and I keep on fighting. And I asked her, what is the meaning? What’s your perception of the silence?
[Patricia Timerman] 24:54
It’s like that he doesn’t care. And I told her like, have you asked what his intentionality yours. And then we found out that his intentionality was in his previous relationship when he would say something, it will just blow over. So, he’s like in order to try to keep the peace, right? I just stay quiet.
[Jon Dabach] 25:13
So, he’s learned a self-defense mechanism that’s to a new relationship. Yeah, but it’s
[Patricia Timerman] 25:18
a mess. And because there isn’t a Google Translate. Right, right. I
[Jon Dabach] 25:23
don’t have a roadmap on how to do it. Yeah,
[Patricia Timerman] 25:25
yeah. And so, I often tell my clients like identify the intentionality, like, what is it make ask a question, as opposed to make an assumption? And see what comes out of it?
[Jon Dabach] 25:37
It’s beautiful. It’s three letters. It’s easy to remember, it’s a great tool for your couples. I love it. I think it’s fantastic. Do you train people in this modality?
[Patricia Timerman] 25:48
I have my chapter one. Chapter Two, I’m actually doing like a little like small book that’s going to have just what the intention action perception now what to do with it? Yeah. Kind of thing. Yeah, I want to begin, I would love to do a study on it to look at, you know, I will say that from my use, because I think it’s been what 2018? Or 2019?
[Patricia Timerman] 26:14
It’s good amount of time. Yeah. For family. Yeah, that I’ve been using it. And it’s been working for the most part. So, and even in my marriage, I use it a lot,
[Jon Dabach] 26:23
which is awesome. Isn’t it funny how as a, as a counselor, as a therapist, what I find is, if I’m in a fight with my wife, the what I asked myself is what would I tell one of my clients? And that kind of gets me back into either Gottman or whatever method and it works. It works. It’s like it works on us too. You know, it’s really, so yeah,
[Patricia Timerman] 26:46
you know, there’s so in the training platform that we created, I wanted to be able to do a couple of things just for for not just for counselors or professionals, but for everyone. And I’m planning on doing one that I’m gonna call it the art of communication, not to say that I’m an expert on it, because I think we can always learn, but there are things that I’ve implemented in my marriage and in relationships with other people and in, in my work with couples that has worked well. One of them has been cold words. I say like cold doors are amazing, but there’s a science to it. Right?
[Patricia Timerman] 27:24
When you use a code word with someone, you need to identify the meaning, the instruction that you want your partner or yourself to follow. And you need to make sure that when you use a code word, you only use it when it’s pertinent. You can’t overuse it. Yeah, right. So, one example again, I go back to my life. Yeah, my husband before COVID would come from work. Mind you, you can see I’m a bit loquacious. Yeah. But you come back from work and I just finished hearing to Lino people talking to me so like, I am excited to see you like so tell me how to do what it is.
[Patricia Timerman] 28:04
And he just couldn’t with me, and it was you know, that awkward moment where I’m like, just don’t talk to me like so we created the court sentence I guess which is I’m not home. Met what it meant I need space. I need space like I would love to be here I can’t be present for you I need space the instruction when he says it is Don’t talk to me you can be in the same couch with me. Just don’t talk to me.
[Patricia Timerman] 28:33
If I ask for him if I say something is only because it’s an emergency and we got our respective the interesting thing though, is that when I use it, I need a physical distance Sure. Right. So, the same meaning can be can have different instruction for each of us. So usually in code phrase you mean can have this thing called phrase in code word or code phrase right can have a
[Jon Dabach] 28:59
different meaning when I say it, then when you say it,
[Patricia Timerman] 29:01
which is really important we can just assume that for you and for me will be the same so for me I will usually walk to the area I need to go and if he comes to me, I’m like I am not here right so steps away. For him it doesn’t matter but it even becomes a joke because then I’m sitting beside him for his and I’ll text him like you know when you get home but it just
[Jon Dabach] 29:25
my wife fell into this on accident she’ll especially because I do so much writing and recording and stuff at home. She’ll she’ll ask me, Are you here? You know, and it’s but it’s very similar. And I’ll say No, not yet. And it’s but you’re right. And we never had a conversation about it. But it was so it was so clear. The first time she said it that it became a tool for us. It became
[Patricia Timerman] 29:47
it becomes a tool right cold words are great. I love doing with my clients because I’m like it brings you awareness of yourself as well not just what you need from your partner, or even a deal Khalidi one. So, I’m going to go silly here. If you’re,
[Jon Dabach] 30:04
yeah, for sure. I have four kids, I’m used to,
[Patricia Timerman] 30:07
okay, we are a silly household. My husband lived in Gainesville, at first, he was going to law school. So, we’d go back and forth. And there’s this stuff that we call Northville. Because they had all those like little Disney characters, but they were like little balls. So, we say that they were morphed, okay?
[Patricia Timerman] 30:25
So out of that grew something that became what I would call a de-escalation tool. Whenever we are in a tense moment, either because there was an argument or something else, we’ll go 123 mores, and the two of us will go and then was like, throws an arrow or something to go. But what I know, it’s silly, right? I’ve been calling you
[Jon Dabach] 30:49
to, it’s silly. But it’s I mean, you know, if I saw a couple of fighting in the middle of the fight, one went, and the other one shot and I’d be like, I want that relationship. How do I get that relationship?
[Patricia Timerman] 30:59
But that’s, that’s the thing. When sometimes, you know, when you’re in an argument, and you just can’t get out of it, you kind of get into that flooded part. Yeah, you don’t know how to get out of it. So being able to do that, what happens? There’s a physical, there’s a physiological aspect to it, because you feel yourself up.
[Patricia Timerman] 31:18
And then you kind of let go. So even feel like the contraction of your body? Yeah, so then the relaxation of your body. With my clients, I’ve been calling it the perfect fish, I think is a little bit
[Jon Dabach] 31:31
right, super memorable. The more outlandish the imagery, the easier it is to remember. So puffer fish is great,
[Patricia Timerman] 31:38
right? But each of them creates their own. But it’s again, that’s a de-escalation one, right? We have bold words; we have the de-escalation one and then reflecting Leyzaola lot with them.
[Jon Dabach] 31:51
That’s great. My wife always, whenever we do a different one, but it’s similar. It’s, but it’s specific with me. It’s like an I’ve noticed every woman will impersonate their husband the same way, they’ll always go home. Every single woman I’ve ever, it’s just like, oh, there’s my house. It’s like that’s what women think of their husbands when they get mad. It’s just this stomping giant who has a deep voice and isn’t quite bright, you know?
[Jon Dabach] 32:20
And it’s like, that’s kind of what we probably look like when we’re mad. So, she’ll start doing that impression to me, and I’ll go okay, I get it. So, and it’s interesting, because I’m pretty good at De-escalation myself, I do it in a different way. Because I come from an Israeli household with a lot of young my mom’s European Jew, so she’s Ashkenazi. So, they kind of clash, but my dad yells, just to say, hi, sometimes he’ll yell, you know, just kind of who he is.
[Jon Dabach] 32:45
And I’ve noticed, like when we when, when our voices did get raised, I would. And it’s hard to physiologically come down, like you said, so I would just yell about something ridiculous. And it works. But the problem though, there is one drawback my kids never know if I’m seriously yelling now or not 711-year-old who like literally, when I yelled looks like this, you know, he’s just like, is this real or worrying about something wrong?
[Jon Dabach] 33:09
And I’ll say, and the bananas are turning brown, and they’re like, what? And so, everybody finds their way, but I think it’d be, it would probably be healthier to do without yelling more. So, not that I’m a yeller. But I find myself like if you do, if I do get to that point, it is it’s hard. It’s hard to get right down.
[Patricia Timerman] 33:28
Yeah, no, I agree. Right? And when we when we are animated, right, so have something to physiologically, like really bring ourselves down helps a lot. Let me ask you, is it okay, if I use a profanity here or not?
[Jon Dabach] 33:46
Okay, nobody under 21 is going to be listening to this.
[Patricia Timerman] 33:50
I say that, because when we’re talking about couples’ communication, we often come about passive aggressiveness and sarcasm. Yeah. Right. And, again, intention, action perception, right? What’s the intentionality behind that that can get lost in translation?
[Patricia Timerman] 34:08
And so, I usually tell my clients, I mean, there’s a difference between passive aggressiveness and she talking. Yeah. Right. When you’re sarcastic because you’re she talking the two of you are participating industry talk. Right? Right.
[Patricia Timerman] 34:21
So, I can say something about your cookie, you say something about mine, and you know, but the smokers are in on that. Yeah. When we’re being passive aggressive one is in but the other one isn’t, which allows for hurt. Right? So being able to differentiate the both because sometimes people don’t have like, it’s just all sarcasm, and if I don’t understand that sarcasm, it can become a conflicting.
[Jon Dabach] 34:47
Yeah. I had an Italian couple they one session was all about they, they probably said 90 times within the 15 minutes, busting my balls. where it’s the same idea shits on he’s like he’s bust my balls, I’m bust your balls, you bust my balls. It was like, I was like what’s going on here? So, but yeah, you’re right. And it’s funny because there’s that fine line.
[Jon Dabach] 35:10
And when they cross it, it’s like I you can feel it, that tension comes out. It’s like get back in my mouth. I didn’t mean to say that. Yeah. And so, but it’s a natural communication style. And if you have that passive aggressive streak in you just as a means of communicating, then it, it’ll it Yeah, it’s something you got to work on.
[Patricia Timerman] 35:29
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I like to do with my clients again, I abide by my IEP, because I like it. Yeah. And so, when I’m talking about communication, I usually tell them, you have, what do you want to say? Yep. The message you want your partner to receive? And then once you identify the actual message from what you need to say, because sometimes all you need to say is a little bit harsh. Yeah. What do I really mean? Knowing your partner?
[Patricia Timerman] 35:59
What’s the best delivery method? And when we don’t have a best delivery method, then we can fall into the I statement or criticisms or softening plane? Exactly right. So, you can either go with bohemian on it. You can go Gottman on it. There are different tools, right?
[Patricia Timerman] 36:18
Sure. But it does make a difference. Like sometimes I’ll have my client and write an angry letter. Right. And then from the letter when we’re going through it, it was like, well, the actual message is I’m hurting or one more quality time, right. But I can’t sift through everything that I just want to say. So, I like to do those columns.
[Jon Dabach] 36:41
I think that’s great. And defusing their own emotional kind of tangled mess through writing is obviously just a great tool. Yeah, journaling is a big part of what I try to push. Not everybody does it. But you know, when they do it, especially if I noticed when people journal consistently for a few weeks, like every day, the transformative power of it is, is huge. It’s huge.
[Patricia Timerman] 37:09
There is a song. Okay, my voice is not good. But there’s a song that I the lyrics really hit me when he’s talking about journaling, because I think that that’s what it is about. So I’m going to like just think a little bit of it, if that’s you. So she goes to weigh em and I’m still awake writing the song, If I let it all down on paper is no longer inside of me threatening the life he belongs to. That’s what journaling is. Right is letting it out is if we just think about our bodies in order for oxygen to come in co2 needs to go out.
[Jon Dabach] 37:52
That’s a great metaphor. Yeah, right. That’s brilliant.
[Patricia Timerman] 37:55
Because if we leave it in, if we’re holding to the co2, it’s toxic to our body, things start failing, right? So, when life gives you stresses, use one of your five senses either right? A say it aloud, so you can hear yourself is a fact check. Right? Your senses are fact checkers. Yeah. Sorry, I
[Jon Dabach] 38:16
love it. What’s next for you?
[Patricia Timerman] 38:22
So, I, I mean, one, if I get to write my book, I really want to write a book. I’m very enmeshed with my profession. As you can see,
[Jon Dabach] 38:32
I think for you just a quick tip, I am just finishing my book. And someone suggested because I can be quite loquacious myself to speak it out. And then I had a great editor, who would take the recordings and write the first draft. And what I take my kids to a school that’s like a half hour away a couple of days a week.
[Jon Dabach] 39:00
And on the way back, not while they’re in the car, but on the way back to the office. I would record for a half hour. And as long as you’re talking at a decent steady pace, you know, 2030 minutes is kind of a chapter. So after, yeah, after a couple of weeks, I had 160 pages, and it was just a matter of editing.
[Jon Dabach] 39:19
What’s your book about? Mine’s called the soul bonding technique. And so, there’s, it’s a lot of Gottman, but in kind of and Chapman kind of in the way I do it, but there’s also a spiritual component because of my background as a religious Jew. So, like, I believe kind of my and this is more about you than me, but I’ll tell you kind of a high-level view.
[Jon Dabach] 39:39
So, the, the belief I have in love in general, first of all, love is about giving back and learning how to be a giver. But and here’s the catch. In order to have the ability to give so much you have to have a very reliable source where you can always receive. And to me, it has to be non-human, because people will let you down eventually.
[Jon Dabach] 40:06
So if you’re religious enough to believe in God and connect with that, beautiful, if not, if it’s the universe, it could be a hobby, but I tell people you should. And if it’s many things, then it’s many things. So, if your friend lets you down, you have your family. But in order to be the kind of giver that you kind of need to be in a relationship, you have to be able to draw on a source where it’s, you have so much love that you have extra to give.
[Jon Dabach] 40:30
That’s kind of the core of it. And that’s, and that’s kind of the first kind of lesson that I go, like, how do you connect with that love, a lot of it’s through gratitude and journaling. And when you’re overfilled, with so much love that you have extra to give, it becomes easy to give. And not only that, I relate a lot of it to being a parent.
[Jon Dabach] 40:48
You know, it’s like when you think of the parent child relationship, the parent always gets more out of it than the child, even though they get nothing in return. Right? I mean, they’re making the lunch they’re paying, and like, really, we should be kicking these little people out of our house, but we love it.
[Jon Dabach] 41:03
Why? Because we get invested. Now, if you’re not religious at all, then it’s your survival brain turning on what love is the reason for love, because it’s like, well, there’s no other rational explanation for me being this generous, other than this weird concept of love. But if you have, you know, if you have a more spiritual background, it’s like, well, that’s God’s role to, you know, God gives without getting anything return.
[Jon Dabach] 41:23
And it’s because he loves you, and he’s more invested than we are. So that’s kind of the crux of the underlying foundation. And then I use the Gottman tools to teach, you know, defusing conflicts and building the love maps and stuff. And I kind of have a slightly like, I have a couple of different touches on Chapman, I actually think that most people tell me if you if you find this, yes, everybody has their primary love language.
[Jon Dabach] 41:50
But I find on the on the five if you were to take a quiz people have a spectrum. And so for me, I always tell people look, chances are, it’s an odd number, you’re going to have your top three, and your other person’s going to have their top three, find the one that aligns. And that’s your easy win.
[Jon Dabach] 42:07
So, for my wife and I, we only have one that really aligns she’s a gift person and she’s an act of service. I hate both. So, but quality time we align. Like for me physical touch, and words of affirmation are huge. They’re very difficult for my wife to give, because that’s just not how but spending time watching TV or going on a hike or walking together.
[Jon Dabach] 42:26
Let’s well hikes a big you know, a stretch walks a walk together is you know, that’s we love it. And that’s where we find that it’s like it’s just easy to reconnect on that level. And then when we want to be grand and do this big gesture, we tap into that.
[Patricia Timerman] 42:43
I agree with you. I feel like we all have all five you write within writes. But it does change it and it’s not that Oh, quality time and is with everybody and for which it is because we’re always evolving. Just like one of my mantras is better sound. And I learned that because we talked about perfection.
[Patricia Timerman] 43:04
And I say perfection only happens when something stands still. Right? So, a painting can be perfect because it stands still. But our life is ever changing. We’re always moving. So, things can shift. But it’s interesting when he talked about grand gestures, one of the things that I talk about is ordinary versus extraordinary shows of love. Right?
[Patricia Timerman] 43:27
And what I mean when I say extraordinary is going out of my way to put a smile in my partner’s face. Right? So, it doesn’t have to be a trip to Paris or you know, like it can do of course, but like for example in again, silly household.
[Patricia Timerman] 43:47
My name is Dr. Timerman I was I when I worked at the one 100 suicides, I bought a teddy bear because I lived on my own. And I called it Mr. Bear. And that was like, what I would cuddle do it. It sounds sad, but if you if I lived on my own, I’d get home at like seven in the morning because when my shift was the graveyard one and then for my first my first Valentine’s with my husband, he gave me a teddy bear.
[Patricia Timerman] 44:16
And so sometimes I will leave a session and he will put my reading glasses and was severe. And on Tavi for Pavlov, BF Skinner is I am also a nerd. He will put like, the VR, right, so I come outside and I see them with that. And he just he went out of his way to put a smile on my face. And that’s an extraordinary show of love.
[Jon Dabach] 44:39
That’s beautiful. And those are those are memories that have huge currency in the love bank. Those moments. Yes, generosity and going out of your way for sure.
[Patricia Timerman] 44:51
I tell him, so I’m Jewish, my husband’s Catholic. We do Shabbat. He learned in Hebrew, the wine or prayer, the prayer for the holla. And so, every time that he does it, I go to him like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, because he got the push for you put it in your bank account,
[Jon Dabach] 45:11
I bet he loves hearing that ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, guy.
[Patricia Timerman] 45:16
And you know what this relationship taught me, which is also need versus want in a relationship. Because sometimes you have things that you believe or needs. For example, for me marrying a Jewish man, I always thought throughout my entire life he was in need, didn’t have to be Brazilian, but had to be Jewish.
[Patricia Timerman] 45:36
Because growing up in a Jewish household, you know how it is right? Like it’s, so my sister married a Jewish man, my brother did not marry their Jewish woman. And when I started going out with my current husband, at first, I’m like, this is not going to work. He’s not Jewish, like, we’re friends for years, but it’s just like it’s short lived.
[Patricia Timerman] 45:57
And then I started noticing that, although he’s not Jewish, he respects my Judaism and his family open their house for me to do Passover there. For us to like, be together during Shabbat for me to do the Hanukkah candles.
[Patricia Timerman] 46:14
Sounds like love. And so, I realized that what I gained from being with him and my family made, my house is Jewish Catholic, right, we have Chris snowcap, we have all of that knows the importance it is like identify as Jewish Brazilian. So, it became a want my need was having somebody who respects my heritage, right, and we become reborn or your individuality.
[Patricia Timerman] 46:42
Yeah. And it really dawned on me, because sometimes we have preconceived notions of what our needs are, in theory, when we put it in, that may hold us back. And so to be able to differentiate needs, and once which I do that sometimes with clients in sessions is it makes a
[Jon Dabach] 47:01
difference, a big difference. Yeah, because, I mean, how many of us actually sit down and ask ourselves a question. Is this a need or a want? Nobody? Nobody actually does that until Dr. Timerman says, okay, time to do that now. You’re right, our books are you trying to write your book, if you need help with the whole transcribing, and editing, we can talk later. It’s such a wonderful process.
[Jon Dabach] 47:27
Yeah, I can walk you through how to get that done. And I’d love to read your book. But it takes a lot off your plate, especially if you have for someone like you who can talk so easily. I think you’ll I think you’ll fall in love with it. So other than yours Is there anything like any big goals or things you’re coming up on?
[Patricia Timerman] 47:46
So, I was actually towards the end of the year but we kind of had to stop a little bit just because life kind of got in the way. Dr. Machuca from Barry University and myself. I worked a lot with grief, writing niches grief, my study, my work is a lot in suicide grief and I really wanted to understand COVID grief.
[Patricia Timerman] 48:06
And so, we’re doing a study on COVID grief, a qualitative understanding the difference between the grief to Delta grief to Omicron What COVID Is today to what was before and I hope to resume our study on that now outside of that in my personal life, there is conversation of pot we have a canine baby.
[Patricia Timerman] 48:27
There’s conversation of a human being so conversations those are the
[Jon Dabach] 48:36
don’t do it your life will end I have four kids we call the last one the vasectomy. Don’t do it. It’s great. It’s the most difficult and rewarding thing I’ve ever done and it’s beautiful if you if you want to do it yeah, it’s it’s it’s a wild ride for sure. And it teaches you more about being a couple than anything else. Because there’s so much more to what you stand for when there are children involved.
[Patricia Timerman] 49:09
Yeah, I get you know, it’s funny we have Kira, her full name again. Era shawarma Timerman Barbosa DE SILVA I don’t know why shawarma when there was probably
[Jon Dabach] 49:22
a middle name one of the middle names is going to be shawarma. That’s
[Patricia Timerman] 49:25
wrong. This is my puppy’s name Kira karma to remember to De Silva. She has brought so much love it I don’t remember what life was like before her. Yeah. Like it’s, it’s amazing.
[Patricia Timerman] 49:39
And I usually I tell my husband that seeing them together as my favorite channel is absolutely my favorite channel. Um, but there was something that I wanted to mention regarding communication. So, if anybody who’s listening to to their trainer identify at least one thing that can get out of communication aside from the Seven Principles for Making marriage work, And the IAP model, please people is gratitude. I was talking to this code to a couple today.
[Patricia Timerman] 50:08
And I said we are very classically conditioned, right? So, if we’re in a relationship that right now all we can focus on is criticism. The moment my partner opens your mouth, my entire body contracts, because I don’t know what’s coming. And I’m assuming that criticism and so I’m already on guard.
[Patricia Timerman] 50:26
And so, it got mine and all of that right if I just say thank you, thank you for going to Publix. Thank you for walking the dog. Thank you for making the bed. Right for this ordinary thing. Now, I kind of break that classical conditioning a little bit because I don’t know if what’s coming out of your mouth would be gratitude or criticism. So, my physiological response doesn’t come right away either. I love that. So, if nothing else gratitude,
[Jon Dabach] 50:54
you can never go wrong starting with gratitude for sure. I think it’s a great advice. Well, it’s been amazing for people who want to get in touch with you I already mentioned it earlier before the interview but advocate to create the number to advocate to create calm in Miami you guys probably serve all of Florida and do you have any other states that you work in? Or just Florida mainly
[Patricia Timerman] 51:15
thus far? No, we may but for now, Florida Awesome.
[Jon Dabach] 51:19
Awesome. And I’ll be sure to reach out and you know, talk to you about your book. I think you definitely need to write it I’m I’ll be your first customer.
[Patricia Timerman] 51:29
So, it was such a pleasure speaking